Alice Winn on In Memoriam; Success, Storytelling & Interesting Reads
Joining me on today’s Christmas Chapter is the wonderful Alice Winn. I was so excited to welcome Alice back to reflect on the success of In Memoriam, chat about her next projects and get some really interesting book recommendations. If you missed our previous chat you can catch up with it here listen now
Of course, no episode of Best Book Forward would be complete without some irresistible book recommendations to add to your festive reading list. Here’s everything we discussed:
📚 By Alice Winn
✨ Books Mentioned
- Inkheart by Cornelia Funke
- Pride & Prejudice by Jane Austen
- Persuasion by Jane Austen
- Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neil Hurston
- The Colour Purple by Alice Walker
- The Holy Bible
- The Quran Beheld by Nuh Ha Mi Keller (not available on bookshop.org)
- The Collected Essays of George Orwell
I really hope you enjoy listening to this episode as much as I loved recording it.
Tomorrow, I’ll be sharing another festive conversation in The Christmas Chapter series, catching up with another wonderful past guest.
In the meantime, if you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review Best Book Forward, and don’t forget to tell your friends, it really helps new listeners discover the show.
See you tomorrow, and happy listening. 🎄
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Transcript
Welcome back to Best Foot Forward, the Christmas chapter.
Speaker A:Today we have a very exciting guest joining us, the incredible Alice Wynn.
Speaker A: ver a year ago, back in March: Speaker A:And In Memoriam has become a bit of a literary landmark, winning multiple awards and many readers hearts, my own included.
Speaker A:In this episode, we're going to reflect on Alice's incredible year, finding out how it feels to have written a book that has taken the world by storm and how all of that success has shaped her next steps.
Speaker A:So it's time to settle down for some more bookish chat and let's give Alice Wynne a warm welcome back to the show.
Speaker A:Alice, welcome back.
Speaker A:I'm so happy to have you here again.
Speaker A:Thank you for joining me for a Christmas special.
Speaker B:Very happy to be here.
Speaker A: chatted last back in March of: Speaker A:So I'm really excited to chat to you again and find out what you've been up to since.
Speaker A:But before we talk about that, shall we give listeners who maybe haven't picked up In Memoriam?
Speaker A:I don't know where they've been, if they haven't, but maybe give them a little flavour of what In Memoriam was about.
Speaker B:That would be lovely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B: boarding school in England in: Speaker B:And they are also both secretly in love with each other, but neither of them realizes that the other one feels the same way.
Speaker B:They both think of it as this, you know, great shameful secret.
Speaker B:And then World War I breaks out and they both end up going to the front together.
Speaker B:And the question of the novel changes from being one of will they or won't they get on the same page about their love for each other and becomes instead a question of whether either of them will survive the war.
Speaker A:And it is such an epic read.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's still one of my favourites.
Speaker A:And actually it's funny because before we came on to chat, I picked up my copy to have a little look through and the thing that sort of jumped out at me, I always knew that I loved this book, but picking it up again and having a look through, I remembered the reading experience of it, sort of the emotions that I felt and in particular, as you go through and you get, like, the little news clippings and the Rolls of Honor, I could remember how I would take a deep breath and then like, okay, who's.
Speaker A:Who's survived, who hasn't?
Speaker A:And it's just so clever and really moving how you connected us to the characters.
Speaker A:It's such a great read.
Speaker A:If you haven't picked this one up, you've got to add it to your Christmas list and tuck yourself away and read it right now.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Well, you just reminds me of as a child, I read Cornelia Funke's Her Inkheart, and it's a children's book.
Speaker B:And there's this character whose father always tells her that when they're traveling, she should always take new books with her because where you read a book becomes sort of permanently imbued in the book itself.
Speaker B:And so, you know, you should bring a comfort book when you travel in case you feel sad or alone or in need of comfort.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But you should also try and bring new books because that way you.
Speaker B:You'll look at that book and go, oh, yes, I read that book when I was, you know, in the Lake District or whatever it is, you know, And I just.
Speaker B:I just think that's a lovely thing about physical books as opposed to ebooks.
Speaker B:I also love an ebook, but I love how with a physical book, you get kind of transported back to where you first were.
Speaker B:When you.
Speaker B:When you look at your edition, it's kind of magic.
Speaker A:You definitely do.
Speaker A:You really, really do.
Speaker A:And actually, it's funny because my sister does something.
Speaker A:I don't know if she still does it, but she always used to buy a new candle when she would go on holiday, so the scent would remind her of where she was.
Speaker A:And I was like, that's such a clever.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm not that organized, but.
Speaker B:I do really love that because I do think I do this a little bit with perfumes.
Speaker B:You know, I. I sometimes I reach a new era and I'm like, I no longer can wear J' Adore by Dior.
Speaker B:Like, I'm at elsewhere, you know, now I have.
Speaker B:I have a child.
Speaker B:It's time for the new perfume, you know, whatever it is, because it's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you can kind of see, smell your way back through your life.
Speaker B:You're like, oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Or if you smell something, because I've had a perfume for my wedding day, and it's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:I mean, we married a long time now, but I've still got the bottle and it's like, obviously not the set, you know, but when I open it, I can just remember so many things about my wedding day.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It really is very evocative.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:And you're right about books as well.
Speaker A:Like, I mean, I can remember times and place of books that have meant something to me, where I was either physically or in my life at the time of reading it.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And actually, I do worry about that with.
Speaker A:When you say about ebooks, I don't read electronically, but I have started listening to audiobooks.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it has the same disadvantage as ebooks in that particular sense.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think they.
Speaker B:They have a sort of timeless quality in a sort of.
Speaker B:In a negative sense.
Speaker B:I think Kindle and audiobooks, even though I really do love them both for convenience, use both of them.
Speaker B:But I think they.
Speaker B:Yeah, they don't.
Speaker B:They don't lodge quite as securely in my memory.
Speaker A:See, whenever I listen to an audiobook, I will have the physical copy in front of me and I sort of read along a little bit to get me into it.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I know that a lot of people do that, but I think that's insane.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:I always think it's from, like, growing up.
Speaker A:Those cassettes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You'd have like a cassette and the.
Speaker A:Read along.
Speaker A:There'd be like a little sound when you had to turn the page.
Speaker A:I think it's that sort of thing for me.
Speaker A:I have to listen and read, but it helps me sort of stick with character names.
Speaker A:And if I'm out and about and I've seen it on a page, then my brain can sort of keep up with that.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Anyway, we sort of went off and actually talking about audiobooks.
Speaker A:I think we spoke about your audiobook.
Speaker B:I haven't listened to the.
Speaker B:I've had bits of it.
Speaker B:And I also love, love Christian Coulson, who does the.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:He read it and I. I picked him out of, like, a lineup of voices and I was like, this man, he's the one, like.
Speaker B:And I have got, like, people always telling me how much they love the audiobook.
Speaker B:So I think it was really well done.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I must go and listen to it because I've heard it's amazing because I always wondered how it would work with, like, you know, not being able to see, like, the newspaper clippings or the letters, the different formats as you go through.
Speaker A:But I must go and listen to it as well.
Speaker A:So, anyway, so In Memoriam basically took the world by storm.
Speaker A:And I'm going to read out a little list of some of your awards that you won for it because it was incredible.
Speaker A:So it was the Waterstones Debut Fiction Prize winner, the British Book Awards Debut Book of the Year, Waterstones Novel of the Year.
Speaker A:The New Yorker and the Washington Post named it as the best book of the year and the Best Book Forward awards.
Speaker A:It won best fiction, best Historical fiction, and then the following year it won Best paperback.
Speaker A: t selling hardback fiction of: Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:Hardback literary fiction.
Speaker B:I think that was a slight fiction.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:But still selling.
Speaker B:Richard Osmond, for instance, outsold Richard Osman.
Speaker A:I think I read it.
Speaker B:No, it really did not, is what I mean.
Speaker B:So it's what.
Speaker B:That's why the word literary fiction is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that.
Speaker B:In that little.
Speaker A:Well, to me, it was.
Speaker A:It was enough.
Speaker A:I was like, I'm taking it.
Speaker A:So, I mean, that's really impressive for a debut when you back.
Speaker A:Well, for any book, actually.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker A:What am I talking about?
Speaker A:When you look back to before it was published, did you ever dream that it would be so successful and have such an impact on readers?
Speaker B:Well, yes, in terms of.
Speaker B:I think I really did fantasize about, you know, I think every writer, you know, has this hope that, like, maybe.
Speaker B:Maybe this book that they're writing, like, will be beloved by millions of people or whatever, but not in a very serious, serious way, because I don't.
Speaker B:I don't know, I don't want to be sort of falsely humble here, but I. I do think that the reality is the author's job is to write a good book, and their publishing team is to get it on the table of the awards committees, get it to the top of the Waterstones staff, get it in the hands of as many people as possible.
Speaker B:And so, you know, I did my job.
Speaker B:I think I wrote a good book.
Speaker B:But ultimately, the.
Speaker B:The sort of.
Speaker B:Most of the success you've just listed feels to me as if, you know, it couldn't have happened if I hadn't written a good book.
Speaker B:But obviously, you know, I. I think it's good, but it's.
Speaker B:It's a production success, really.
Speaker B:It's a publisher success.
Speaker B:And I'm really proud of what they did.
Speaker B:I think they did an incredible job.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I just.
Speaker B:I feel grateful.
Speaker A:Can I come in and fangirl there?
Speaker A:Because it's more than a good book, Alice.
Speaker A:It is an incredible book.
Speaker A:It's so brilliant.
Speaker A:And, you know, there are times when other books make these lists that people are like, really.
Speaker A:So I think it is a.
Speaker A:It's obviously a marriage between the two of you.
Speaker A:A great book and a great team and very well deserved that it received so much love.
Speaker A:Oh, who's this?
Speaker B:This is Colonel.
Speaker B:Colonel Widdishins.
Speaker B:He just came and yelled at me.
Speaker B:Hello, Ken.
Speaker A:Oh, what do you think, Colonel?
Speaker A:Did you have a say in this?
Speaker A:Did you write and think.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Very unhelpful.
Speaker A:Oh, bless him.
Speaker A:He's here for it as an emotional support cat.
Speaker A:That's lovely.
Speaker A:Second cat we've had on the Christmas bonus, actually.
Speaker A:So, cats and Christmas.
Speaker A:So were there any particular moments along the way?
Speaker A:So obviously those are the awards, but more sort of from readers that stand out.
Speaker A:Anything.
Speaker A:That's because I was thinking today, actually, as I watched Roddy this morning, we're film filming this, the beginning of November, so we're just around the corner from Armstad's Day.
Speaker A:There's all poppies in my town.
Speaker A:And I just wondered whether there was any sort of really personal reader reactions that stand out to you.
Speaker B:Yeah, weirdly, especially in America.
Speaker B:This is not actually a helpful addition in America because I've had, you know, the book did really well in the UK and then in the us I think has surprised me by doing quite well, but.
Speaker B:But in a more muted and more like, almost like literary way.
Speaker B:And what has been quite meaningful at events in America is I've been approached by a few veterans and I did have this one experience in New York where this very handsome, very tall man came and he had been waiting in the queue to get his book signed.
Speaker B:And then he kind of.
Speaker B:He couldn't quite look at me and he kept saying, you know, I don't go to book events.
Speaker B:I don't really read books.
Speaker B:I'm a veteran.
Speaker B:I was at Afghanistan and I was in the army during the Donors Don't Tell era.
Speaker B:And, you know, my friends all told me I had to read this book.
Speaker B:Like my.
Speaker B:I. I think he seemed to have some sort of friend group of gay veterans who had kind of been through similar experiences and they had all read the book and he was like.
Speaker B:And so I just.
Speaker B:I just needed to come and speak to you.
Speaker B:And I feel really awkward and I. I don't know how to speak to you and I, you know, I don't come to these events ever.
Speaker B:But, you know, I just wanted to thank you and, you know, I don't want to put him in a spotlight.
Speaker B:I just felt.
Speaker B:I felt as if I could really see that.
Speaker B:That he was out of his element and I was really touched that he had done that just to come and tell me that the book had been meaningful to him.
Speaker B:And I, I also, you know, I'm.
Speaker B:I'm not a gay war veteran.
Speaker B:And so I was very apprehensive about doing a bad job of that.
Speaker B:And so having.
Speaker B:And it's not just him, you know, I've had other instances like that, having these veterans who have literally seen combat come and tell me, like, you war.
Speaker B:This book represented my feelings about the war experience that I had is very meaningful because it was one of the things I was really worried about when I was writing the book was doing a bad job of that in particular, especially of the war aspect.
Speaker B:And so that's been.
Speaker B:That's been really lovely.
Speaker B:And I've had a few people, and this is more in the uk, but I've had a few people tell me, like, young people, like teenagers and young adults be like, oh, you know, I read this book and then I felt like, okay, it's time.
Speaker B:And then they came out to their parents.
Speaker B:And that's been really, really lovely as well.
Speaker B:And I think I kind of describe to other authors, I'm like, you know, I think there's something called.
Speaker B:There's vile pleasures about being published.
Speaker B:Vile pleasures being like pleasures that you can feel are stoking your ego in a bad way.
Speaker B:Like, I think most of the time, if you're reading reviews, that's a vile pleasure.
Speaker B:Like, you're looking to see if they're like, yes, this is the best writer of all the writers.
Speaker B:And you're like, oh.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:I think it's bad for your soul.
Speaker B:It doesn't.
Speaker B:It feels good.
Speaker B:But like, in a.
Speaker B:It feels good the way that, like, eating 12 donuts feels good, where you're, like, a bit sick as well.
Speaker B:And then there are pleasures that are sort of true pleasures.
Speaker B:And I think the true pleasures are generally anytime you're actually in person interacting with someone who loved the book, that's always very.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker B:They just feels good and meaningful and precious.
Speaker A:I think that's really moving, actually, because I did, as I say, when I was walking this morning.
Speaker A:I've always sort of thought, I wonder what readers would think about it.
Speaker A:But when I started to think about veterans, I was like, oh, I wonder whether she's had any feedback.
Speaker A:So that's really moving.
Speaker A:But to have.
Speaker A:I mean, I always think it's so incredible how books touch people in different ways, but to have a young person read that and sort of feel that they can then go and speak to their parents.
Speaker A:And that's incredible.
Speaker A:That's just so amazing that, you know, that you've been able to do that.
Speaker A:I think that's just lovely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I would cry, I think, if somebody reached out and told me that something I'd done had impacted their life like that.
Speaker A:I think that's really, really amazing, Alice.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's very sort of.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's just magic, really, isn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Well, that's the beauty of books, isn't it?
Speaker A:You think you're just picking them up to read, you know, for pleasure or whatever.
Speaker A:But, you know, sometimes you just pick one up and it will touch you or change you or something.
Speaker A:And that's the.
Speaker A:The magic of being a reader.
Speaker A:I just love it.
Speaker A:So we're now two years post publication and I still see a Memoriam popping up all the time.
Speaker A:Like it pops up on Instagram.
Speaker A:I was just saying to you, I saw it in Good Housekeeping, I think it was last month, where Dame Jacqueline Wilson has said it was one of the last books to make her cry.
Speaker A:It's amazing that it is still coming up.
Speaker A:I did last year in July, after spotting the New York Times did a piece on the 100 best books of the 21st century.
Speaker A:I asked Bookstagram to tell me what they thought should have been on that list.
Speaker A:And we got 100 books.
Speaker A:And In Memoriam came in at number three on that list, which is amazing.
Speaker B:I will say that your, your, Your method of researching this.
Speaker B:This list, I think was biased because you yourself have been pushing a memoriam, I feel like.
Speaker B:So I think.
Speaker B:I think I'll take that with a grain of salt.
Speaker B:But it's.
Speaker B:It's very.
Speaker B:It's very.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's lovely.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:But there are.
Speaker A:There are lots on that list that I hadn't read, and there was a few that I didn't like on that list as well that came through.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So I was really happy when I saw it.
Speaker A:I do feel like it is a modern classic.
Speaker A:I think it's one that's just going to sort of keep coming up.
Speaker A:People will keep reading it.
Speaker A:So I really do.
Speaker A:What do you think it is about immemorial, that has connected readers to it so strongly?
Speaker B:Well, I. I do think, and it's hard.
Speaker B:It's a love story.
Speaker B:And actually it's quite a simple love story.
Speaker B:And I've been thinking about this because I think simplicity in a love story is usually a good thing.
Speaker B:Like Pride and Prejudice is so simple.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:She.
Speaker B:She overhears Mr. Darcy says something mean about her and she's like, well, I hate him.
Speaker B:And then later he turns out to be nice, and now they're together.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, it is actually a very simple story.
Speaker B:Same with Persuasion, right?
Speaker B:I mean, Jane Austen really knew how to write a simple love story mostly.
Speaker B:I mean, then when you look at Northanger Abbey, it's got.
Speaker B:The love story in Northanger Abbey is much less simple.
Speaker B:It's kind of headier and it's not as good a love story.
Speaker B:And I think Immemorium just has really, really simple stakes.
Speaker B:They both just really admire and respect and like each other, and we could see why they should be together, because as a.
Speaker B:As friends, you can see that the dynamic is, like, basically healthy and good.
Speaker B:And then they have this very strong, you know, external reason they can't be together, which is homophobia in their time period.
Speaker B:And then they also have internal reasons why they can't be together.
Speaker B:Right, which is that Elwood.
Speaker B:Elwood firmly believes that Gaunt is straight, and Gaunt firmly believes that Elwood is sort of incapable of feeling true love for.
Speaker B:For someone, you know, in a sustained way.
Speaker B:And then that, you know, that whole love story is.
Speaker B:Has very simple sort of mathematics to it.
Speaker B:It just kind of mathematically adds up in a simple way.
Speaker B:And then it's set against the backdrop of something that's a.
Speaker B:You know, especially in.
Speaker B:In the UK, it's.
Speaker B:In World War I is very sort of prevalent in the.
Speaker B:In the cultural understanding of the country, of the country's history.
Speaker B:It's this important moment in the country's history that everyone knows a little bit about.
Speaker B:And there's something inherently tragic, in a romantic way about World War I in particular.
Speaker B:So I think.
Speaker B:I think the backdrop kind of sets off the love story.
Speaker B:And so there is just this kind of simplicity to the whole book, I think that I think is maybe what people are reacting to.
Speaker A:It's interesting you say about the simplicity as you were talking about that.
Speaker A:I was thinking, well, I guess there are some formulas and love stories that work, which is why they are retold in many different formats.
Speaker A:Like, you think Jane Austen's been retold so many times.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that's probably.
Speaker A:But I think with yours, I mean, I just.
Speaker A:As a reader, the two characters, you just feel so strongly for them, and you connected us to it from the start.
Speaker A:So, I mean, I just.
Speaker A:You know what I'm like with your book.
Speaker A:I absolutely love it.
Speaker A:I'm still pushing it on everyone.
Speaker A:I will not stop.
Speaker A:I'M doubting myself now, Alice, because I've just looked down at my notes and I was like, oh, I didn't double check this fact.
Speaker A:So we're going to run with it and see how my memory plays out.
Speaker A:But the last time we spoke, we were talking about how In Memoriam was the first book that you published.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:Was it the fifth book?
Speaker B:Fourth book that I wrote.
Speaker A:Fourth, Right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So if you look back then at the Alice who's about to sit down and start writing In Memoriam, what advice would you give her now, knowing what you.
Speaker A:What you know?
Speaker B:Well, I don't think I'd give her any, any advice because it sort of worked out.
Speaker B:I feel like, you know, the butterfly effect.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:What if I give her advice and then I.
Speaker B:It somehow it's dangerously affects her, you know, what if I give her a little bit of extra confidence and then that turns out to be just the devastating death knell, you know.
Speaker A:So I just think, let's leave her there then.
Speaker A:She's doing great.
Speaker A:Would you whisper in her ear that it's going to be okay, though?
Speaker A:Did you feel like doubt when you're sitting down?
Speaker B:Well, the thing is, what's weird about Immemorial is that I wrote it so fast that I think I didn't, I didn't.
Speaker B:I felt doubt sort of after, before I wrote it, and I felt doubt sort of after I'd written most of it or written, you know, it was kind of six months into the process of writing it.
Speaker B:But for the bulk of the, you know, the main early drafting phase, I think I was just like focused on the book.
Speaker B:I really was just.
Speaker B:I just knew I had to write it and so I wasn't really thinking too hard.
Speaker B:I was like, that's a problem for future Alice, you know, whether or not right now I'm just focusing on problem which is writing it.
Speaker A:Okay, so something we also touched on briefly last time is what you're working on next.
Speaker A:So I wondered whether you're able to share any news.
Speaker A:Anything that you're working on at the moment we can look forward to.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm working on a. I've almost finished a book about Arthurian legend.
Speaker B:I. I kind of describe it as a very messy, complicated love quadrangle among minor characters of Arthurian legend.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:I think I've been thinking about immemoriam simplicity and how everyone loved that because I'm like, wow, this, that's not so much the case with this one.
Speaker B:So we'll see how people feel.
Speaker B:But I'm.
Speaker B:I'm really.
Speaker B:I've grown really attached to this book.
Speaker B:I think it has sort of four protagonists, which was exponentially harder to write because there's just so many more different combinations of how they can react to each other and how they can influence each other.
Speaker B:But it was, it was a book that just got better the more kind of labor I applied to it.
Speaker B:And I'm very proud of it and I'm really, really hoping that it will connect to people.
Speaker B:But who knows?
Speaker B:We'll find out.
Speaker A:Exciting.
Speaker A:And do we know roughly when that might be?
Speaker B: I think we are hoping for: Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:Oh, that's so exciting.
Speaker A:I can't wait.
Speaker A:I'm sure it'd be amazing.
Speaker B:That's not.
Speaker B:I don't know how privileged that information is, but I will say I don't.
Speaker B:There's not a date set.
Speaker A:Okay, well, we will wait patiently and I'm sure it will be amazing.
Speaker A:I cannot wait to read it.
Speaker A:Do you think the success of In Memoriam has made it harder for you to write?
Speaker A:Or knowing that, you know, you've done so well, does that give you more confidence?
Speaker A:How does that of gone for you?
Speaker B:Well, firstly, let me say, you know, I imagine there are people listening who are writers and who might be unpublished writers.
Speaker B:And so I will firstly say I think it is definitely harder to be an unpublished writer than to be a published writer.
Speaker B:So let me caveat that any complaints I have about being a published writer, I would always choose being a published writer over being unpublished.
Speaker B:Because I think when you're unpublished, there is this.
Speaker B:You're battling off this sort of existential fear that all of your work will be for nothing and that you're going to just labour and labour and labour.
Speaker B:And it's self indulgent because no one wants to read it.
Speaker B:And at the end of all of this work, it's just going to be a intangible word document on your laptop and then no one will read it.
Speaker B:And that's just really, really hard psychologically to just keep existing in that space for a long time.
Speaker B:So that was harder.
Speaker B:But I had written four novels in that headspace and so I think I had sort of started to develop some tools to.
Speaker B:To handle that.
Speaker B:And I didn't have any tools to handle the.
Speaker B:The new problems of writing as a published author.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And weirdly, I felt less confident writing the next book, I think, because the success of In Memoriam made me very worried about disappointing people with the next book.
Speaker B:And that's quite A weak place to be writing from.
Speaker B:You don't want to be writing from a position of like, oh, gosh, that sentence was stupid.
Speaker B:Everyone's going to be so disappointed.
Speaker B:And, you know, you.
Speaker B:You also, during the process of publicizing a book, you end up hearing a lot of people talking about your work.
Speaker B:And even if, you know, as I was, you're lucky enough to mainly hear positive things, there's still just this inherent understanding that people are going to be making value judgments about your work.
Speaker B:And I think that that can have a surprisingly negative.
Speaker B:Not negative.
Speaker B:It can weigh heavily in your head.
Speaker B:I think, again, to say, I would rather have this problem than the problems I was having before.
Speaker B:But I think it's almost as if, I don't know, like, if you.
Speaker B:If you spent ages and ages and ages doing your hair and makeup and everyone was just like, wow, you look so beautiful, and you're, like, happy.
Speaker B:But on the other hand, you're like, well, what about when I don't do my home?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:You're just.
Speaker B:That they're all praising you now and that they won't later.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:It is a surprising emotion, I think how.
Speaker B:How much hard, not how much harder.
Speaker B:How hard it was to write the second book was.
Speaker B:Was surprising to me because I really thought, well, it's not my second book, it's my fifth book.
Speaker B:It should be fine.
Speaker B:But I can't complain.
Speaker B:I will say, I really can't complain.
Speaker A:But I wonder.
Speaker A:When you say that, though, Alice, I'm thinking, you know, the feelings that we had when we read In Memoriam as readers, it's because you've put so much into it.
Speaker A:So, you know, I'm sure you've done that with your new book.
Speaker A:And it is hard.
Speaker A:I mean, I can imagine how hard it is to sort of have that sort of.
Speaker A:You know, you've got greedy readers like me who are like, when's what?
Speaker A:What's next?
Speaker A:What's next?
Speaker A:What's next?
Speaker A:From you.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:But I'm sure, I mean, it's.
Speaker B:What a miraculous.
Speaker B:I mean, honestly, I am so grateful that people are asking me what's next?
Speaker B:What absolute gift.
Speaker B:I mean, no, I would never, ever want that not to be the case.
Speaker B:I love that, you know, and it's.
Speaker A:Funny you say about new writers, I quite often have chats with people who go, say to me, they go back to re.
Speaker A:Listen to your episode that we did together to listen to it.
Speaker A:So they were so inspired by what you were saying and things what do I say?
Speaker B:It was so inspiring.
Speaker A:Well, Lucy Steeds, who wrote the Artist, I remember her saying, like, she'd have.
Speaker A:She'd get to a point in the book where she was a bit stuck and she'd pop her earphones in, go for a walk, listen to you, and then come back and be like, right, okay, I'm ready to sort of sit down again.
Speaker A:So it's nice that you're putting things out there and understanding that it is hard for anyone who's going through it.
Speaker A:But I'm so grateful to everyone who keeps trying to put these wonderful books out, because I need to keep reading amazing books.
Speaker A:So please keep them coming.
Speaker A: books that you picked back in: Speaker A:And we'll look and see whether they still stand for you today, whether you'd swap any out or It's Christmas.
Speaker A:If you wanted to add an extra one in, we can add that in as well.
Speaker A:So you picked Bridget Jones's Diary by Helen Fielding, Catch 22 by Joseph Heller, Meditation by Marcus Aurelius, Passing by Nella Larson, and All Quiet on the Western Front.
Speaker B:How to say they're all great.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, they're all really good.
Speaker A:Do you know, I'm so glad you said that, because every time I've asked people this on this series, I'm like, oh, what if somebody goes, oh, no, I won't change them all.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, you didn't do it probably the first time around.
Speaker B:No, I think that's right.
Speaker B:I think those are all books, I think are kind of forever books that I love.
Speaker B:I mean.
Speaker B:Yeah, but that's a hard question, isn't it?
Speaker B:You always want to add more and more books, don't you, to that kind of list?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I. I'm reminded of how much I love Zora Neale Hurston's Their Eyes Were Watching God.
Speaker B:And actually, kind of in a similar vein, Alice Walker's the Colour Purple.
Speaker B:They're both books about aging, I think.
Speaker B:I mean, they're not.
Speaker B:They're books about lots of things, but what.
Speaker B:I'm someone who has been worried about aging pretty much my whole life, and I find that those two books, Their Eyes Were Watching God and the Colour Purple, both feature women who are just so much happier once they're older.
Speaker B:Like, their youth is just so scary and hard, and then once they're older, they just have gravitas and purpose and dignity.
Speaker B:And I think, as I get older, the more I think how grateful I am that I was able to read those books.
Speaker B:I actually almost wish I had read them even younger.
Speaker B:I read them in my 20s.
Speaker B:I read.
Speaker B:I wish I had read them as a teenager because I think there's so much in our culture that makes aging past.
Speaker B:You know, honestly, like 19, you start feeling as if you're not.
Speaker B:You're not quite at the peak of it all, at least.
Speaker B:I grew up in LA partly, and I think that was definitely in the air there.
Speaker B:And I think I've been thinking about those books lately, and I'm very grateful to have read them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I want to go back and read the Color Purple.
Speaker A:It's one that sort of keeps popping up in places.
Speaker A:I don't know when I read it, but I know it was a long time ago, and it's one I feel like I should revisit.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And to flag, especially with the Color Purple, like, it is so bleak to begin with.
Speaker B:You've heard me speak about it.
Speaker B:You'll be like, wow, it sounds like an uplifting, wonderful theory.
Speaker B:But I'd like.
Speaker B:No, I mean, it is.
Speaker B:It is pretty full on.
Speaker B:There's a lot of sexual and more.
Speaker B:But I think it's a miraculous book.
Speaker B:I think I think of both of those books as being in the same category for me as the Secret Garden in terms of that.
Speaker B:That kind of like, you know, sort of almost secular, religious feeling that it gives you.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, just heads up.
Speaker B:They are both filled with horrible things.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, I remember being.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Moved because I didn't watch the movie when it came out.
Speaker A:I was like, I'm not sure that I want to watch the movie.
Speaker A:I feel like.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think I know what you mean.
Speaker B:I think seeing some of the things in the book depicted on screen by people is.
Speaker B:Is sort of upsetting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I've heard, you know, that.
Speaker B:That it was good.
Speaker A:I'm sure it's amazing.
Speaker A:But I was like.
Speaker A:I mean, I know sometimes I can read something on a page and it can really affect me, but to see it is different.
Speaker B:I totally know different things.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So in terms of what you've been reading, I know you've been busy writing.
Speaker A:Do you read a lot when you're writing, or do you sort of put books to one side to sort of concentrate or.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:No, I love to read when I'm writing.
Speaker B:I find that.
Speaker B:I think the more I'm reading, the better I write.
Speaker B:Really.
Speaker B:And especially trying to be really playful with what I read.
Speaker B:And you can't be too strict with yourself, I think, in that sometimes really surprising things will turn out to give you something really important.
Speaker B:You know, you'll read something that is completely off piste and then there's just one sentence and you're like, oh yeah.
Speaker B:And then that unlocks a whole thing, you know, in your book that's about completely different topic, completely different people, completely different era, whatever.
Speaker B:So I, I do try and, and read a lot.
Speaker B:I, I've been mainly reading non fiction this year though, or actually since I was published.
Speaker B:I, I, I'm not sure.
Speaker B:I almost feel like it might be because I saw how the sausage was made on fiction.
Speaker B:So I'm kind of like, I'm sort of finding it kind of relaxing to be in, in non fiction or I still don't know how the sausage is made.
Speaker A:So do you have any standout reads from this year that you'd like to recommend?
Speaker B:Yeah, I was just thinking about this.
Speaker B:Let me get my list.
Speaker B:Well, I finished reading the Bible.
Speaker A:Did you?
Speaker B:Yeah, I read the whole King James Bible, which was a bit of a, I started in the pandemic and I've just been working my way slowly through it and I'm glad I did that, you know, I mean it was a bit of a, of a scholarly enterprise, I shall say.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I, I do feel as if a lot of, a lot of art and music and literature kind of opens itself up to you once you've really done a deep dive.
Speaker B:Because everything is inspired by the Bible.
Speaker B:I mean, not everything, but so much of Western art is inspired by the Bible.
Speaker B:And, and so it's kind of cool to be like, oh yeah, I know who Absalom is or whatever.
Speaker B:And to have a, and to have a kind of an opinion on like, how do you feel about the Book of Numbers?
Speaker B:I'm like, well, I know how I feel about the book.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:It's just, it's kind of fun to know about the different prophets and all of that.
Speaker B:It's, it's, it's kind of fun.
Speaker A:I mean I, I was, my mum was Catholic so I was brought up Catholic.
Speaker A:And I mean, I don't think I've read much of the Bible.
Speaker B:We tend to read the Bible on the whole, like traditional Catholics, because it's supposed to be really, that you're, you're introduced to religion via the church.
Speaker B:Like the church is the mediator between, because they don't want people to misunderstand the Bible, which I totally get because, you know, what?
Speaker B:You read some passages in the Bible and you go, wow.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I could see how this was interpreted in all sorts of exciting and interesting ways.
Speaker B:But, yeah, sorry, I love, I know.
Speaker A:I love that because I was just thinking back when we did our last, last recording and we did like bookish Secrets and you're like, I forget which way it was, but is that you read Peace and not War, not War.
Speaker B:Of War and Peace.
Speaker A:Have you gone back and read any war?
Speaker B:No, I might, I might eventually.
Speaker B:It is, yeah.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:So interesting.
Speaker A:It's not, not what I was expecting you to, to say, like the Bible.
Speaker B:Yeah, I, I, and I'm working on the Quran.
Speaker B:I've got a beautiful translation that I've been reading, actually.
Speaker B:Who is it by?
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Well, the, the book is called the Quran Beheld and it's a really beautiful translation.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:By.
Speaker B:Nuha Mim Kala, I think.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, you sent that to me so I can add it onto the show notes for people who want to.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that's, that's fun.
Speaker B:And I mean, I'm just really enjoying the language.
Speaker B:And same with the King James.
Speaker B:It's, it's, it's got some.
Speaker B:Well, the thing that's kind of funny about the King James as opposed to the, this translation of the Quran that I'm reading where, you know, the translation is all by one man.
Speaker B:And so there is a consistency to the, the beauty of the, like, he has done a beautiful translation.
Speaker B:So everything is pretty beautiful and in, in a kind of consistent, congruent way.
Speaker B:Whereas the King James.
Speaker B:I don't know, you really get this feeling that some of the writers are better than others.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:There are some books of the King James Bible where you're like, wow, this guy is like a banging great writer.
Speaker B:This is incredible.
Speaker B:Like, how cinematic.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:I feel, I'm so, like, invested in these characters and how, you know, they're feeling.
Speaker B:And then there's some where you're just like, oh, my God, this is an interesting thing.
Speaker B:And you have just made it so boring.
Speaker B:So that's kind of fun.
Speaker B:And then the other, I think probably the, the most influential book I read this year is I read the Collected Essays of George Orwell.
Speaker B:It's like a big book doorstop.
Speaker B:And it's not all of his works.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's not all of his books.
Speaker B:It's just his essays.
Speaker B:And he wrote hundreds and hundreds of.
Speaker B:I mean, quite apart from anything else, he wrote 500 book reviews.
Speaker B:And so he just wrote.
Speaker B:And he used to have, like, A, I don't know, like a weekly opinion piece or whatever and some newspaper.
Speaker B:He's very, very prolific because he was a, you know, working writer.
Speaker B:That's how he made his living.
Speaker B:And I just love him, I love him so much.
Speaker B:He.
Speaker B:I can't recommend this enough.
Speaker B:If you are someone who has been doom scrolling the news, I suggest you replace doom scrolling the news with the Collected essays of George Orwell because it actually gives you the same feeling.
Speaker B:Because he's, he's clearly someone who nowadays would be writing doom scrolly think pieces for the places where I like to doom scroll.
Speaker B:But instead he was doing it, you know, in the 30s.
Speaker B:And he's so intelligent and insightful and half the things he's talking about really, really apply to the current day and are terrifying.
Speaker B:But then sometimes he is just so wrong.
Speaker B:And then that's kind of exciting because then you're like, oh, oh yeah, you don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker B:And neither do the people today know what's going to happen.
Speaker B:And so for example, this is one of my favorite examples of his wrongness.
Speaker B:He, he was talking about.
Speaker B:Well, hang on, there's several examples of his wrongness.
Speaker B:One example was he talked about how car accidents were really bad and there were loads and loads of people getting into car accidents.
Speaker B:And he was just like, the problem is insurmountable, the road system isn't safe.
Speaker B:And to be honest, there's no way to reduce car accidents short of ripping out all of central London and redoing the cars, like redoing all the roads.
Speaker B:And he was like that's it, that, that no solution.
Speaker B:And I could totally imagine reading that and being very just like discouraged in this time period because he didn't think about seat belts.
Speaker B:That didn't occur to him.
Speaker B:But seat belts actually have really like there's lots of things that you can do to make fatalities that have been done.
Speaker B:Or another one was he was really, really worried about the birth rate which was dropping a lot at that time.
Speaker B:He didn't obviously know that there was going to be this massive baby boom after World War II, but he was really worried about it.
Speaker B:And one of his pet theories as to what was causing this drop in babies was the bad laundry system in London which was, you know, no one had washing machines and so you would just send your washing out.
Speaker B:And the washing companies like had this total power because everyone needed the laundry to be done and so they had these long wait lists and you had to like beg to get into in with a Laundry like company.
Speaker B:And then if they lost your laundry, they were just like, well, sorry.
Speaker B:And like you were kind of just out of luck.
Speaker B:And it was like, you know, he was like, imagine having a baby baby.
Speaker B:And these laundry companies, like, come and pick up once a week and you've just got stinking baby cloth diapers everywhere.
Speaker B:Like, it's disgusting.
Speaker B:No one wants to have babies because of this.
Speaker B:Like, we should nationalize the laundry.
Speaker B:And I'm like, but George, they're gonna invent washing machines.
Speaker B:And you know what?
Speaker B:That's not gonna make people have more babies.
Speaker B:So you're wrong on just so many counts anyway.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker B:A lot.
Speaker B:But he's sorry.
Speaker A:When you said that, I was like, yeah, that's not gonna be my thing.
Speaker A:But as you're talking about things he got wrong, what's that say about me that I want to read the things he got wrong.
Speaker A:Well, I don't know what that says about me.
Speaker B:He's also brilliant on.
Speaker B:I just loved him.
Speaker B:He was funny.
Speaker B:He's.
Speaker B:He's usually on the right side.
Speaker B:Like his heart's in the right place.
Speaker B:I think he was a weirdo.
Speaker B:I just, I. I just absolutely adored him.
Speaker B:I feel like he's my best friend.
Speaker B:I. I just wish he was around so I could have lunch with him today after this.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:That's kind of what I'm wondering.
Speaker A:Then we're going to move on to some festive questions.
Speaker A:I'm wondering whether we might.
Speaker A:That might not be the last we hear of him.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So if you could gift.
Speaker A:I know we're not going to tamper with younger Alice, who's sitting down to.
Speaker A:Just in case, but if you could gift her something as she's sitting down to write to help her in her journey to writing in memoriam, what would you gift her?
Speaker B:I would give her.
Speaker B:I would give her the 30 pound Revlon round brush hair dryer.
Speaker B:It is almost as good as a blowout.
Speaker B:It's very expensive.
Speaker B:I would say it's 60 as good as a blowout.
Speaker B:And you know what?
Speaker B:You just.
Speaker B:Sometimes you should just blow dry your hair like before an event, because then you feel better about your hair.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:Do you know what it.
Speaker A:When your hair looks good, you feel like a different person, don't you?
Speaker A:I mean, I've got my pulled back today.
Speaker B:I never blow dry my hair because I'm always worried about damaging it.
Speaker B:But you know what?
Speaker B:Sometimes you've just gotta.
Speaker B:And I wish I could just.
Speaker B:I wish I could give the gift of that knowledge to not, not 26 year old Alice, but sort of 30 year old Alice who was promoting the book.
Speaker B:Because I think I sometimes I think I felt really, really stressed out about what my hair was doing at events.
Speaker B:And I'm just like, just get the 30 pound Revlon round brush hair dryer.
Speaker A:I'm gonna add it to my Christmas list too.
Speaker B:It's just so good.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:That's pretty.
Speaker A:Well, I'm gonna be asking for one as well.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So something I've asked some of my other guests then.
Speaker A:If I could take you back in time for you to experience Christmas in another era, where would you like to go?
Speaker B:Well, I, I suppose the classic answer to me feels like Victorian era.
Speaker B:Right there is.
Speaker B:You do kind of want to.
Speaker B:I was just listening to an In Our Time podcast about Little Women.
Speaker B:I love In Our Time, but Little Women begins with Jo March saying Christmas won't be Christmas without any presents.
Speaker B:And I don't know.
Speaker B:I do, I do kind of think there's this very Christmassy feel to like, I don't know, where are they?
Speaker B:They're in like Massachusetts or somewhere, aren't they?
Speaker B:Yeah, some snowy New England town in the 18.
Speaker B: The mid to late: Speaker B:Does feel all like.
Speaker B:Actually, speaking of the peace section of War and Peace, there's some very good Christmases that happen in, in War and Peace.
Speaker B:So I think, I think, yeah, the Victorian dot you around, you know, it was.
Speaker A:Have a little bit.
Speaker B:It was, it was colder back then because it was.
Speaker B:There was mini ice age.
Speaker B:So I think, you know, you'd have your fur.
Speaker B:This is all assuming you're like a rich white person, but I think as a.
Speaker B:Which white person?
Speaker B:It seems pretty good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's the thing, isn't it?
Speaker A:Because like my kids are always like, is it?
Speaker A:We'll have a white Christmas.
Speaker A:I'm like, no, no, not gonna happen.
Speaker A:Maybe like a white January or February, but not Christmas.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And then finally, what's the one thing you must have at Christmas?
Speaker A:Be it a book, a movie, a tradition that makes it feel like it's really Christmas for you?
Speaker B:I love watching It's a Wonderful Life.
Speaker A:I love It's a Wonderful Life.
Speaker A:It's the best.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker A:Yeah, I, I love all Christmas movies as well.
Speaker A:But I do love It's Wonderful Life.
Speaker A:I could go and watch that now, actually.
Speaker A:It's November.
Speaker A:It's a bit early.
Speaker B:It really puts you in a grateful headspace.
Speaker B:I think it's, it's.
Speaker B:Yeah, it does good to your soul.
Speaker B:You can't watch it too often, otherwise it loses it.
Speaker B:But yeah, I think it's, it feels healthy to watch that film once in a while.
Speaker A:Yeah, I've been holding off the my kids to watch it because I want them to watch it with me.
Speaker A:And I was like, there'll be 13 this year.
Speaker A:So I'm hoping that this might be the year they kind of.
Speaker B:I watch.
Speaker B:I watch it most years.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's the thing with Christmas.
Speaker A:Like, even music or movies, you can just watch them again.
Speaker A:Apart from, you know, you say you lose some of the value from it, but I could happily sit and watch Christmas stuff and listen.
Speaker A:I mean, I listen to Christmas music in August, so.
Speaker A:Alice, it has been so, so wonderful to catch up with you again.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me.
Speaker A:Wasn't that such an interesting chat?
Speaker A:I absolutely loved spending time with Alice again.
Speaker A:And I have to say I think I'm going to go and update my Christmas wish list and see if Father Christmas can maybe add one of those Revlon brushes to my stocking this year, too.
Speaker A:All of the books that we've talked about in this episode are linked in the show notes, so do go and take a look at those.
Speaker A:Tomorrow.
Speaker A:I'll be back with another episode in this Christmas chapter, and I really hope that you'll join me for that episode, too.
Speaker A:Thanks for listening and see you tomorrow.
