Catherine Newman Returns: Reactions to Sandwich, Sneak Peek at Wreck, and Favourite Reads
For the first episode of our special Christmas Chapter season I am delighted to be welcoming back the wonderful Catherine Newman. We last spoke back in September 2024 (if you missed that episode you can catch up here listen now)
Today we talk about how Catherine has felt about the reaction to Sandwich as well as giving us glimpse into her next book Wreck. We chat about the books she has read and loved this year, listed below, as well as finding out what her ultimate holiday drinks party might look like.
Of course, no episode of Best Book Forward would be complete without some irresistible book recommendations to add to your festive reading list. Here’s everything we discussed:
📚 Books by Catherine Newman
✨ Books Mentioned
- Maurice & Maralyn by Sophie Elmhurst
- Heart the Lover by Lily King
- Writers & Lovers by Lily King
- Loved & Missed by Susie Boyt
- The Homemade God by Rachel Joyce
I really hope you enjoy listening to this episode as much as I loved recording it.
Tomorrow, I’ll be sharing another festive conversation in The Christmas Chapter series, catching up with another wonderful past guest.
In the meantime, if you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review Best Book Forward, and don’t forget to tell your friends… it really helps new listeners discover the show.
See you tomorrow, and happy listening. 🎄
To stay in touch with Best Book Forward news please follow me on Instagram @bestbookforward or visit my website: https://bestbookforward.org/
Transcript
Welcome back to Best Book Forward and to the first episode of this special season, the Christmas chapter Catching up with Best Book Forward friends.
Speaker A:For the next nine days, I'll be sharing some cosy chats with some of our past guests, finding out what they've been up to since we last spoke, getting glimpses into what they're working on now and then, well as discovering the books that they've been loving this year.
Speaker A:So to kick things off, I'm delighted to be welcoming back the incredible Kathryn Newman.
Speaker A: on the show back in September: Speaker A:Today we'll chat with Catherine to find out what the incredible response to Sandwich has been like for her, as well as taking a dive into her new book, Rec, which comes out on the 29th of January and is brilliant.
Speaker A:You are going to love it.
Speaker A:So I hope you're somewhere nice and warm and cozy and all settled in, because it's time to give Kathryn Newman a warm welcome to the show.
Speaker A:Catherine, welcome back and thank you so much for kicking off our special holiday bonus season.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me.
Speaker A:I'm so excited that you're here.
Speaker A:I know you've just flown into London, so I hope your jet lag's not feeling too horrible.
Speaker B:Not too bad.
Speaker A:It's always worth coming this way, I think, as well, isn't it, from.
Speaker A:I find coming from the States to London is always worth it.
Speaker B:The older I get, the more I feel like it's really bad both ways.
Speaker A:Well, I appreciate you being here.
Speaker A: last spoke, it was September: Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:A long time.
Speaker A:Well, it's not really, is it?
Speaker A:But I guess it is.
Speaker A:That conversation still sticks with me.
Speaker A:I really enjoyed it.
Speaker A:And I was just saying to you, my sister and I still use a quote from that episode as a mantra for us, and that is we choose to be charmed and delighted by our teens.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And as I said, sometimes it's.
Speaker A:Part of me is charmed and delighted and the other thing is the shoes by the door.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm learning.
Speaker A:I'm getting better.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:It's true.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:I guess that's parenting, right?
Speaker B:When they're little, you're tripping over their Legos and then you're tripping over their shoes and.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:And then they'll head off to university And I'll be tripping over the nothingness.
Speaker B:Yes, the nothingness is, in my way, worse than any other thing.
Speaker A:Oh, I'm not ready.
Speaker A:My two will be 13 in November.
Speaker B:You don't need to be ready.
Speaker A:No, I'm not ready anyway, so I'm not ready for the teens.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:So last time we spoke, we were chatting about Sandwich, which I loved.
Speaker A:It is such a brilliant, warm, witty, relatable read.
Speaker A:So for anyone who's missed it, do you want to give everyone a little flavor of what Sandwich was all about?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Sandwich is a book that takes place during one week in the life of its narrator, which is Rocky.
Speaker B:She's in her 50s.
Speaker B:She's on vacation, on holiday with her kids, who are young adults and her elderly parents and her husband, who she's been married to for like 3 million years.
Speaker B:And they're on the, at the beach, in the house they've rented every summer for her kids entire lives.
Speaker B:And so it's a book about a family vacation.
Speaker B:It's a book about this kind of midlife moment of aging parents growing and growing away kids.
Speaker B:It's about menopause.
Speaker B:She is menopausal.
Speaker B:And she's also having a lot of memories of kind of all of the reproductive moments in her life that have led up to this one.
Speaker B:So, you know, content warning, pregnancy, loss, but also just kind of reproductive mayhem, as I have said, said about it.
Speaker B:And a lot it's nostalgia.
Speaker B:There's a lot of nostalgia for young, you know, younger moments of motherhood.
Speaker B:A lot of realism about it too.
Speaker B:She doesn't really whitewash it.
Speaker B:And then just a lot of caretaking and holding.
Speaker B:Sorry, that's a long answer.
Speaker B:It's about so many weird things.
Speaker B:But I think too, it's just a book about her sense that everything is so fleeting, you know, with her parents alive, her kids with her, you know.
Speaker A:And it is, it's beautiful.
Speaker A:And you, when you say that about the content, warning, obviously that is important, but it is when I said to you before, it's beautifully done.
Speaker A:You know, there's moments of humor, there's moments that, you know, where I just think, you know, it's very honest and real life, isn't it?
Speaker A:That's, that's.
Speaker A:And that's what we need sometimes just to sort of see and share those experiences.
Speaker A:It's so important for women to, to see those.
Speaker A:So thank you.
Speaker A:So Sandwich is a book that definitely won a lot of hearts, including my own.
Speaker A:It was also a New York Times bestseller.
Speaker A: rnes and Noble's best book of: Speaker A:And it was nominated in the Goodreads Choice Awards for best fiction.
Speaker A:I think people really fell in love with Rocky and her family.
Speaker A:Probably because it's so relatable and you can sort of see yourself or somebody you know in there.
Speaker A:You've said before that there's a lot of you in Rocky.
Speaker A:So how does it feel knowing that she's been so well accepted and is so well loved now, how has that been for you?
Speaker A:You're so sweet.
Speaker B:All I can think of is all the, like, one star reviews people tag me and where it's like they can't wait to tell me how annoyed they are by her or, you know, how they read it, but they don't know why, because it was so bad.
Speaker B:Here's advice, unsolicited advice.
Speaker B:If you don't like a book, just put it to the side.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You don't have to finish it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:People who write me and they're like, I made myself finish it because.
Speaker B:And I'm like, girl, that is on you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Never, Never.
Speaker B:The life is so precious.
Speaker B:Don't finish a book you're not liking.
Speaker B:Anyway.
Speaker B:That's an aside.
Speaker B:It is the greatest gift of my life, the way people have responded to Rocky because that book, my whole intention was to connect with other women, especially with women my age.
Speaker B:But it turns out they're sort of different lines of connection, which I have the great joy of finding out.
Speaker B:People who are the age of Rocky's kids write me also.
Speaker A:Oh, interesting.
Speaker B:Very sweet.
Speaker B:Anyway, it's amazing and I have loved it so much.
Speaker B:Truly, it is such an honor.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:That kind of reflecting each other, you know, where someone says to me, oh, my God, same.
Speaker B:And then that quiet something for me.
Speaker B:And the book has quieted something for that person.
Speaker B:And it's just great or illuminated something or reflected something back.
Speaker B:Such a joy.
Speaker A:That's so interesting about the.
Speaker A:The young people writing, like.
Speaker A:And I love.
Speaker A:They sort of saying it's helped them to understand their mums a little bit, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:They identify with the Willa character.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker B:And I was at a book event last night in the Cotswolds, and one of the very young booksellers had read it with her mom as like a buddy read.
Speaker A:Oh, that's so nice.
Speaker B:Because it's sweet.
Speaker A:It's really sweet.
Speaker A:But it's like.
Speaker A:I mean, I sometimes think my kids must think I'm nuts sometimes.
Speaker A:And I sort of try to explain.
Speaker A:I mean, they're probably a wee bit young, but I Try to explain to them sometimes, but I just think they are looking at me like she lost it.
Speaker A:So I think that's really nice that it's sort of.
Speaker A:I hadn't thought that that would be the sort of audience that would.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:It's very lovely.
Speaker A:Unexpected and lovely.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:So, shall we talk about what's next for Rocky?
Speaker A:Because as I was just saying, I was at a bookstagrammer's lunch and we were given a copy of Wreck, and everyone was like, is it Rocky?
Speaker A:Are we with Rocky?
Speaker A:I was over the moon, holding up my proof.
Speaker A:It's so lovely.
Speaker A:I've got the.
Speaker A:The first proof, which is lovely anyway.
Speaker A:But that is a gorgeous cover.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:Do you want to tell listeners what they can expect from this next adventure with Rocky?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Although you'll have to bear with me because I haven't really figured out my elevator pitch.
Speaker B:As you can see.
Speaker B:I didn't have one for Sandwich either, even though I've been talking about that book for a year.
Speaker A:One day, sit down.
Speaker A:Any day now.
Speaker B:I'm about to.
Speaker B:Wreck is Rocky, as you said, Rocky again.
Speaker B:She's home living with her husband Willa.
Speaker B:Their daughter is with them kind of temporarily.
Speaker B:She's applying to graduate school.
Speaker B:She's working in a lab.
Speaker B:She's living at home.
Speaker B:There are the cats.
Speaker B:Her son Jamie and his wife Maya are living in New York and her father has moved in with them and he's living in like, a little apartment out back in the.
Speaker B:Attached to their house.
Speaker B:So that's the setup.
Speaker B:It's, you know, not a ton happens exactly.
Speaker B:There's these two kind of slim plot lines that kind of crisscross through the story.
Speaker B:And in one, Rocky has this kind of crazy rash.
Speaker B:And it starts off just seeming like a rash.
Speaker B:She goes to her dermatologist and it pretty quickly turns into one of these kind of cascading diagnostic scenarios.
Speaker B:Anyone who has been in one will probably recognize elements of it.
Speaker B:I know more and more people who understand this kind of thing where you are sent specialist to specialist, have tons of scans and blood work, and they get more and more confused.
Speaker B:So Rocky is doing that, spends a lot of time looking at her medical test results without a lot of knowledge, but with a great deal of investigative zeal.
Speaker B:And then in the other plot line, there has been an accident in her town and a kid that her kids went to school with has been killed.
Speaker B:This is not somebody they're close to.
Speaker B:This is just somebody they knew.
Speaker B:And he.
Speaker B:His car has been hit by a train.
Speaker B:And he has been killed in this accident.
Speaker B:And Rocky becomes kind of obsessed with this accident.
Speaker B:She researches it.
Speaker B:She kind of Google stalks various members of this person's family.
Speaker B:She has a lot of this kind of vicarious grief, imagining losing a kid and then that accident turns out to be a little closer to their family than she had understood.
Speaker B:And I have to leave that just kind of hanging because that's a plot point.
Speaker B:So that's it.
Speaker B:There's a lot of uncertainty.
Speaker B:A lot of it is just the day to day life of, you know, kind of odds and ends of caretaking.
Speaker B:She's a writer, she is working some.
Speaker B:And that's it, that's the story.
Speaker A:I think you can't say that's it.
Speaker A:And I'm just thinking because when we spoke last time, I think you said not a lot happens in Sandwich.
Speaker A:And I was like, but you get so much from it.
Speaker A:And it's the same with rec.
Speaker A:Like, yes, not a lot happens, but there's so much.
Speaker A:And I really feel, I'm excited for people to feel it because as you say, I think there will be people who are going through what Rocky is going through with her, her diagnosis.
Speaker A:I relate to that more on the I am terrible for googling things.
Speaker A:I actually got told off by my doctor and it was like me touch, you know, it was worse than your parents would say.
Speaker A:So I said to my doctor, I've googled it and this is what I've come up with.
Speaker A:I said, you angry with me?
Speaker A:And she's like, I'm not angry with you should.
Speaker A:I'm just disappointed at how much you scrolled to get to where you.
Speaker A:Which is like, it's like your parents.
Speaker A:Are you disappointed?
Speaker B:Disappointed?
Speaker B:I was like, oh, oh, he scold.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:I mean, to be fair, I had gone from I'm not sleeping very well.
Speaker B:To I'm imminently dying.
Speaker B:Yes, I.
Speaker A:You had to escape it.
Speaker A:But it is, it's nice to see when you're reading, I think it's so important that you see those stories of things that you can relate to be at health.
Speaker A:But for Rocky, that was a fear for her in sandwich of, you know, anything happening to her loved ones.
Speaker A:So you can see how this accident is terrifying for her because you know, it could be.
Speaker A:It could be you couldn't it sort of thing.
Speaker A:So I'm excited for people to read it.
Speaker A:I think it is a brilliant, brilliant read.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:At what point did you decide to revisit Rocky?
Speaker B:That is a good question.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:It's so strange I feel like my whole life I've listened to writers say these kind of mysterious things that have rubbed me the wrong way historically, as if it's all this kind of mystical process rather than just this rational thing where you sit down and make stuff up.
Speaker B:And that said, I tried to write this book as a different family.
Speaker B:I wasn't especially.
Speaker B:I didn't really.
Speaker B:I thought it probably wasn't a good idea career wise to write another story that was Rocky and everybody.
Speaker B:Although I think I was wrong about that, to be clear.
Speaker B:That was just like a feeling I had.
Speaker B:But those characters insisted on being in this book.
Speaker B:There's no other way to say it.
Speaker B:I really did try to write it as other characters.
Speaker B:And, you know, Rocky's voice is so close to my voice is one thing, so it's very hard for me to yank it away from her.
Speaker B:And then all the characters kept being these characters.
Speaker B:I mean, they're the characters.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:You know, not to be coy.
Speaker B:I mean, they really are the characters in my life.
Speaker B:And it was going to be a stretch to make it be other people.
Speaker B:So I just.
Speaker B:I just allowed it to happen that way.
Speaker B:I thought maybe I would have to change it when it was done.
Speaker B:And then everybody was happy.
Speaker B:Nobody.
Speaker B:I thought.
Speaker B:I pictured somehow that everyone was gonna be like, what?
Speaker B:No one wants to hear more about this?
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And nobody was like that.
Speaker B:Everyone said, oh, that's great.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker B:That's perfect.
Speaker B:It's fine.
Speaker B:It's a standalone book.
Speaker B:You don't have to have read Sandwich for anything in it to make sense to you.
Speaker B:Although I think there's something about the 12 of it that is enriching, probably in terms of the themes bouncing off of each other, but.
Speaker B:But they're total standalone, so.
Speaker B:So I have nothing to fear is all I'm saying.
Speaker B:Yeah, but if someone writes me and was like, I already hated Rocky and then I hated her again in rec, I'm gonna be so irritated because just don't read it is how I feel.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I've always something that really gets me.
Speaker A:I can never understand why somebody would reach out to an author and say that.
Speaker A:It's like.
Speaker A:I just think it's really strange, isn't it?
Speaker A:There's so many things I go through, life I don't like, but I don't feel the need to go and be like, excuse me, I. I don't like the color of your front door.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:Just saying, can you imagine?
Speaker B:Or like, if you saw a painting in a museum?
Speaker B:And writing the.
Speaker B:The painter and being like, you know what?
Speaker B:I was at moma, I just didn't like it.
Speaker B:I didn't like it.
Speaker B:I didn't like the color palette I, like, nobody would do.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's very strange.
Speaker A:I think there are probably people who don't say thank you in restaurants and stuff.
Speaker A:Like, maybe.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:Looking to be aggrieved.
Speaker B:I mean, I. I don't totally begrudge people who are looking for a hook to hang their grievances on.
Speaker B:You know, the world is so dreadful in so many different ways.
Speaker B:And, like, if you want to hang your grievances on not liking a book I've written, like, that's actually fine.
Speaker B:But more.
Speaker B:My hope would more be just that you would think, oh, I'm different from the people who liked this book.
Speaker B:Just have a.
Speaker B:Approach it with a certain benign curiosity.
Speaker A:Yeah, I sometimes.
Speaker A:I mean, I had before on Instagram, not the same thing at all, but I'd shared a post about book banning, and this woman sent me a message and just was really cross about it that I'd shared it.
Speaker A:And then she was like, I'm blocking and unfollowing you.
Speaker A:And I was like, that's fine, but I was like, I wish you'd stay so I could hear your opinion.
Speaker A:Like, let me hear.
Speaker A:Like, that's what we're supposed to do, right?
Speaker A:We're supposed to have a conversation of, like, how we're different and things.
Speaker A:I was like, you know what?
Speaker B:Good for you to have the energy for it.
Speaker B:We're gonna talk in 10 years, and I'm gonna be like, do you still want to hear that opinion?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:I'm aging out of wanting to hear that opinion.
Speaker B:I'm sorry to say.
Speaker B:I'm like, don't even share it with me.
Speaker B:Me.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker B:Just unfollow me.
Speaker A:That's fine.
Speaker A:We'll.
Speaker A:We'll try and block anyone who comes with any hate for Rocky.
Speaker A:Like, get through me first while I've still got the energy for it.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:I'm such an old crone.
Speaker B:Even while we're talking, I'm like, I can feel myself just croning up.
Speaker A:Let's move just back to writing, then rec.
Speaker A:When you change then back into Rocky's voice, did it flow?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The truth is, it was always in Rocky's voice.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it already was flowing, and I just couldn't get it into a different voice.
Speaker B:And I didn't try as hard as I may have made it seem like I tried.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:It was my intention to write it in A different character, and I just never did.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, as I said, I mean, I think people who love Sandwich are just excited to be back with them.
Speaker A:That's how I felt.
Speaker A:And as you say, you wouldn't need to read Sandwich.
Speaker A:But picking up Rec, knowing the family, it felt like I was catching up with friends again.
Speaker A:It was like, where's everyone been and things.
Speaker A:It's so nice to have that connection.
Speaker B:So I'm glad.
Speaker A:So I know this is gonna sound really greedy because Rec isn't even out yet.
Speaker A:I know in Sandwich we see sort of glimpses of Rocky's life before.
Speaker A:Would you ever consider sort of going back in her life and sort of telling the story of things that happened earlier?
Speaker A:Maybe like the secrets in Sandwich, sort of, or.
Speaker B:It's a good question.
Speaker B:I hadn't.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I think is the answer.
Speaker B:I. I'm not even sure.
Speaker B:I'm not sure what's next for me.
Speaker B:I have been taking reams of notes about caretaking to be slightly opaque about it.
Speaker B:And I'm not sure where, you know, this is the process for me as I take reams of notes about something before I really understand what the book is.
Speaker B:So if I write another novel, I'm not sure yet what it's going to be, but it will have caretaking as a central thematic, which I realize is not exactly news about, like a book I would write for a departure.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Like I'm not going to suddenly write a thriller, it turns out.
Speaker A:But hey, never say never.
Speaker B:I'm interested in other genres.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:I just keep having this like, urge to describe what is happening to me and so it's possible that I will do that again.
Speaker A:Well, I'm sure whatever you do, it will be fabulous and I cannot wait.
Speaker A:But for everyone else who hasn't got their hands on it in the UK, rec comes out on the 29th of January.
Speaker A:It's probably earlier in the States is.
Speaker B:It comes out 28th of October.
Speaker B:So just two weeks from our.
Speaker B:The taping of our conversation.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So we're recording this in October, so going out in December, but I'll put a pre order link in the show notes here.
Speaker A:So if anyone wants to get their hands on that.
Speaker A:Are you going to be back in the UK for that when you do a book tour?
Speaker B:I'm gonna come back in February.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:Fingers crossed.
Speaker A:Okay, well, watch this space then.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So when we spoke in September, you picked the five books that you felt had shaped your life.
Speaker A:So we're going to take a look at those now and see whether they still hold, whether you'd swap any out or as it's the holidays.
Speaker A:And I was going to be kind to you if you wanted to add an extra one in.
Speaker A:So let's have a look.
Speaker A:So we had Amos and Boris by William.
Speaker A:Is it Stiggs?
Speaker B:It is Stiggs.
Speaker A:Farmer Boy by Laura Ingalls Wilder.
Speaker A:Beloved by Toni Morrison.
Speaker A:The Namesake by Jhumpa Lahari.
Speaker A:Is that right?
Speaker B:Jhumpa Lahiri.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Lahiri.
Speaker A:And All My Puny Sorrows by Miriam Taos Taves.
Speaker A:Taves got that completely wrong.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker B:No, I know.
Speaker B:It's an unusual pronunciation of that collection of letters.
Speaker B:Those books are so amazing that I will not remove any of them.
Speaker B:I mean, it's fine.
Speaker B:Honey.
Speaker B:I couldn't have told you what I had said to you.
Speaker B:I mean, I could have, like, guessed.
Speaker B:I would have eventually guessed them all.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know how in different moments.
Speaker B:Different.
Speaker B:It's like I. I have read so many books as you have, but in different moments, I just think of different.
Speaker B:You know, it's like connecting stars to make a constellation.
Speaker B:Like, I just picked different books to create the story of my reading life.
Speaker B:Amos and Boris.
Speaker B:Do you want me to talk about those books, or you want me to move along?
Speaker A:Well, if you want to.
Speaker A:If there's any that you said, if you're happy with them.
Speaker A:Would you add one or.
Speaker B:Yes, I would add perhaps more than one.
Speaker B:I. I'm gonna add at least two.
Speaker B:I read.
Speaker B:I didn't even read it.
Speaker B:I listened to.
Speaker B:I think this is the first.
Speaker B:Not the first sort of complete book I've ever listened to as an audiobook.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:I listened to what is in the United States, the book A Marriage at Sea.
Speaker B:And here is Maurice in Marilyn.
Speaker A:Oh, isn't it great?
Speaker B:Sophie Elmhurst.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, I loved it.
Speaker B:I loved it so much.
Speaker A:It's so good.
Speaker A:I didn't listen to the audiobook, actually.
Speaker A:It was just.
Speaker B:I had to sign tippins, you know, that term where you sign the first page of your book and then they bind it so that they can publish a bunch of signed copies of the book?
Speaker B:So in the United states, I signed 12,000 tippins and I listened to the entirety of More.
Speaker B:More Marilyn and Maurice.
Speaker B:Maurice, yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I loved it so much.
Speaker B:And she reminded me so much of my own mother.
Speaker B:You know, my mom is British, Right.
Speaker B:And has this great wartime.
Speaker B:Just resilience and practicality and that.
Speaker B:I loved that character, the way she was like, well, if I Turn one of my, you know, earrings into a fish hook, like, while her husband, who had been the captain, lies on the floor and cries.
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker B:I loved it.
Speaker B:So that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then I basically, Allison, my publicist, felt yesterday like she took me around to bookstores so I could promote the book of Lily King, which is Heart the Lover.
Speaker B:I kept not talking about Rec.
Speaker B:Instead, I kept talking about Lily's book because.
Speaker A:And it's coming out tomorrow.
Speaker B:Tomorrow here.
Speaker B:It's been out a couple weeks in the US and I got to read it in proof and it is stunning.
Speaker B:I loved it.
Speaker B:Do you have it?
Speaker A:I've just ordered it.
Speaker A:I had a conversation on Instagram about it this morning and I was like, how sad it is.
Speaker A:Am I going to be destroyed?
Speaker B:Like, yeah, you are.
Speaker B:But it is so.
Speaker B:It is such a beautiful love story.
Speaker B:And it is, I can't even say, say enough about how much it's a.
Speaker B:You know, I, I, as my characters do grapple, I mean, rock in particular, with sort of holding everything, you know that especially as you get older, there is so much all the time that's difficult and beautiful and painful and frightening and glorious and you can't, you don't get to pick through it, you know, you just have to hold all of it all the time.
Speaker B:Because if you wait for just the beautiful parts, all of it's going to be over.
Speaker B:It's never going to happen.
Speaker B:And this, that book, Heart the Lover is so beautiful about that very thing.
Speaker B:Holding two things together that really don't go well together is all I'll say.
Speaker B:It's a love story and it just killed me.
Speaker B:I loved it so much.
Speaker A:And it's a short book as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I was like, that's why I messaged somebody this morning, because I was like, she's like, oh my God.
Speaker A:Talking about.
Speaker A:I was like, it's a really short.
Speaker A:And she was like, it's short, but it's gonna really hit you.
Speaker A:It's so beautiful.
Speaker B:Very beautiful.
Speaker B:I read it and then my husband read it, my daughter read it and my dad, my 93 year old father read it.
Speaker B:So, so we are really doing that.
Speaker B:Proof.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker A:Oh, oh, I love that.
Speaker A:I've never read any of her books.
Speaker B:What you're gonna.
Speaker B:Oh, clear a little space in your schedule because you're gonna read that.
Speaker B:You know what you should read while you're waiting for that to come?
Speaker B:Read Writers and Lovers.
Speaker B:Helen, if you don't love it, I'll.
Speaker B:I don't know what I'll do.
Speaker B:I'll Give you something.
Speaker A:I was waiting.
Speaker A:What's she gonna do?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I'll be shocked.
Speaker B:I'll just be shocked.
Speaker B:Read Writers and Lovers and come back to me if you want.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I think I have it on the shelf.
Speaker A:My heart.
Speaker A:The lover is arriving tomorrow, so.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Read Writers and Lovers tonight.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Is that sad as well?
Speaker A:I mean, by Friday, am I just gonna be weeping in the corner?
Speaker B:They're not.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:Maybe.
Speaker A:But sometimes you do need a good old cry, don't you?
Speaker B:I find it so cathartic.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker A:And actually, I find books make me cry more than, like, movies and TV series.
Speaker A:Like, I can literally sit and weep.
Speaker B:Me, too.
Speaker A:Anyway, I might.
Speaker A:I mean, I don't.
Speaker A:I do cry over movies and.
Speaker A:But not in the same way.
Speaker A:It's amazing, isn't it, that it's just words on a page and it can just really affect you.
Speaker B:Amazing.
Speaker A:I love being a reader.
Speaker A:It's so good, isn't it?
Speaker B:The best.
Speaker B:It really is.
Speaker A:It really is.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Kids are like, it's so nerdy.
Speaker A:I'm like, I know.
Speaker A:It's great.
Speaker B:I know, I know.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:I feel that, too.
Speaker A:So were those the standout reads that you've read this year, then?
Speaker A:Were those the ones from that you've read this year?
Speaker B:I mean, I've read so many incredible books.
Speaker B:I read, loved, and missed this year by Susie Boyt Hellman.
Speaker A:Oh, call yourself a bookstagrammer.
Speaker B:Hey, another book that will just take over your life for two days and leave you changed.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:Who was the author again?
Speaker A:Katherine.
Speaker B:Susie Boit.
Speaker B:She's British.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And suddenly, again, like, I'll come off here, like, do these podcasts, and I end up like, oh, I.
Speaker A:A little bit of shopping.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:Did you read Homemade?
Speaker B:God, the Rachel James book.
Speaker B:Love that book.
Speaker B:I, I.
Speaker B:It's such a vibe.
Speaker B:I read it a long time ago now, but when I think of it, I just have this feeling about it.
Speaker B:Like, the mist over the lake.
Speaker B:Like, just not in a good way.
Speaker B:I mean, a great book, but, like a heavy, intense weather experience.
Speaker A:The audiobook is amazing as well.
Speaker A:Rachel read herself, which is what?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, I just talked about it on another episode, somebody else.
Speaker A:And they're like, I don't know.
Speaker A:It's so.
Speaker B:I love to listen to that.
Speaker A:She's got such a beautiful voice, but.
Speaker B:It'S like, I'm just mad about her.
Speaker B:I've met her a couple of times, and I am just in love with her.
Speaker A:This series is turning out to be like the Rachel Joyce fan club.
Speaker A:Yay.
Speaker A:All hail Rachel.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:I just love her.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We kind of swayed off and now I like, I don't know where I am.
Speaker A:Hang on a second.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Okay, so got a couple of little questions just to end.
Speaker A:Although I could sit here and chat to you all afternoon because I'm having such a good time.
Speaker A:So we started the chat talking about your words of wisdom and how we used.
Speaker A:Being charmed and delighted.
Speaker A:So I'm always looking for little nuggets of wisdom and I feel like you're the best source for me.
Speaker A:So if you were going to give Rocky or women who see themselves in Rocky a piece of wisdom to carry them into the new year, what would it be?
Speaker B:I mean, honestly, if this isn't cheating.
Speaker B:I think what I was just saying when I was talking about Lily's book about holding all of it.
Speaker B:Just trying to lean into the fact that life is never going to be one thing and that all there is is all of it, all the time.
Speaker B:And just to try to hold all of it so that you don't kind of miss all the beauty while you're trying to wade through what's difficult, you know, that you just are in it attentively.
Speaker B:Even if it's difficult.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's something.
Speaker A:That's so great, isn't it?
Speaker A:Even when you say even when it's difficult.
Speaker A:It's so easy to sort of.
Speaker A:Yeah, okay, I will try.
Speaker A:I will try.
Speaker B:I know my mother, I was, you know, my mother used to say, don't wish your life away.
Speaker B:And when I was a kid and I, you know, it's like, you can't say that to an 8 year old.
Speaker B:It's like, why not?
Speaker B:My life will go on forever.
Speaker B:But now I just feel that feeling of, of just, you know, there's just really this.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Even if you're doing something that is breaking your heart.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Just to lean into the kind of hereness of it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I got.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:You maybe think I worked for a lady who you.
Speaker A:I mean, it takes me a long time to listen to advice sometimes.
Speaker A:I worked for her years ago and she always used to say to me, you should take your life in bite sized chunks.
Speaker A:Should you just look at too much in one go and should you're missing everything because you are just constantly like, what about this?
Speaker A:What about that?
Speaker A:When I was like, I am.
Speaker A:I mean, that's kind of where my brain is wired, I think.
Speaker A:But yeah, bite sized chunks.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Bite sized Chunks.
Speaker A:But you, you're much more eloquent.
Speaker B:No, I love bite sized chunks.
Speaker B:I'm filing that away.
Speaker B:I just have to think about it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Finally, Catherine, then you are going to be hosting your ultimate holiday drinks party.
Speaker A:Anyone that you invite will say yes and they will turn up.
Speaker A:They can be fictional, they can be real.
Speaker A:Who's coming to yours?
Speaker A:That's so funny.
Speaker B:Have you asked a lot of writers that?
Speaker B:I feel like we're such a bunch of introverts.
Speaker B:I'm like, A, I'm not having a party, and B, I'm not inviting anybody.
Speaker A:Okay, what about Little Reading Circle then?
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:Here's what I want.
Speaker B:I want to have a party and I want to invite, like every fictional cat.
Speaker B:I want to invite all the cats from every book I've ever read that has a cat in it and from all of the picture books from.
Speaker B:From my kids childhoods.
Speaker B:I just want a dinner party.
Speaker B:That's cats.
Speaker A:I didn't even think of a cat from Alice in Wonderland.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker A:The Cheshire Cat.
Speaker A:I'm like, who else is there?
Speaker B:What other cats?
Speaker B:I mean, there's, well, the Disney movie, the Aristocats.
Speaker B:There are a lot of cats.
Speaker B:And I was thinking about it because, you know, I'm traveling, I'm in a hotel, and I'm homesick.
Speaker B:And my daughter always has this idea, this business idea where he would have a hotel, and at the hotel you could pick a cat or dog to be in your room.
Speaker A:That's a great idea.
Speaker B:I mean, I would always stay at a hotel with a cat or dog in my room.
Speaker A:Do you know there's a cat cafe in London?
Speaker B:Where is it?
Speaker B:Near me.
Speaker A:Near Marylebone somewhere.
Speaker B:I think I'm in Pimlico.
Speaker A:I'll send it to you.
Speaker A:I took my kids there when they had like a hospital appointment.
Speaker A:And it's just like you're sitting having like a sandwich and it's like, you can go to the kitten room or the cat room, but one of the cats came and got into my bag and I was like, oh, oh, oh.
Speaker B:Sometimes.
Speaker A:But they did check.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:These things happen.
Speaker A:But you should.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's so cute.
Speaker A:It's lovely.
Speaker B:Okay, well, that's my dream dinner party.
Speaker A:Love that.
Speaker B:That's my holiday party.
Speaker A:I will send you catnip for it to really liven it up.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker B:I think also, just as an explanatory thing, you know, I'm newly sober.
Speaker B:I'm like a year and a half sober.
Speaker B:And so also the idea of a holiday party is so daunting yeah.
Speaker B:It's like, am I drinking the unspiked eggnog like a child?
Speaker B:Like, okay, I'm in.
Speaker B:I might.
Speaker B:I'm in.
Speaker B:Game.
Speaker B:I'll do it.
Speaker A:It's that thing.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:I. I had my last drink on my 40th birthday, so I'm eight years now without drinking at all.
Speaker A:And it is that thing, like you go to someone, you feel like, when people say, like, oh, can I have some crayons?
Speaker A:And just sort of sit in the corner and coloring because you feel like such a child.
Speaker A:Be like, can I have a glass of water?
Speaker B:I know we have some juice.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:I'm like, okay.
Speaker A:But it doesn't bother me now.
Speaker A:Now I just.
Speaker A:No, it doesn't bother me.
Speaker B:I'm actually starting to get it.
Speaker B:I'm kind of over it.
Speaker A:Oh, well done.
Speaker B:Let me not take you down a whole other path.
Speaker B:It's so lovely to talk to you.
Speaker A:It was wonderful to chat to you again, Catherine.
Speaker A:I've loved it.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
Speaker A:Oh, Catherine is such a joy to chat to.
Speaker A:I absolutely loved that.
Speaker A:She is so interesting and so warm and funny.
Speaker A:I could have stayed chatting to her all afternoon.
Speaker A:I really hope that you enjoyed it as much as as I did.
Speaker A:All of the books that we've talked about on the show are linked in the show notes below.
Speaker A:So if any took your fancy, do go and check them out there and you'll also find a pre order link for rec, which, as I said at the beginning, is a fabulous read and I hope that you'll love it as much as I did.
Speaker A:So this was the first episode in the new Christmas series and tomorrow I'll be back with another author and I really hope that you'll join me for that episode too.
Speaker A:In the the meantime, thanks for listening and see you tomorrow.
