Marianne Cronin on Eddie Winston is Looking for Love: Friendship, Love & Self-Discovery
Get ready for a heartwarming hug of an episode with the brilliant Marianne Cronin, author of the novels that'll make you laugh, cry, and believe in the power of human connection: "The One Hundred Years of Lennie & Margot" and "Eddie Winston is Looking for Love".
In this episode we talk about friendship that defies expectations, love that blossoms in the most unexpected places and times, loss that leaves its mark, and the unwavering spirit of self-discovery. You'll also hear Marianne's inspiring story of writing a bestselling novel whilst tackling a PhD – talk about multitasking like a boss!
And of course, we'll chat about these five books and discover how they have shaped Marianne's life
This Lullaby by Sarah Design (not currently available on bookshop.org)
The Unlikely Pilgrimage Of Harold Fry by Rachel Joyce
The Hundred-Year-Old Man Who Climbed Out of the Window and Disappeared by Jonas Jonasson
Exploring the Language of Poems, Plays and Prose by Mick Short
Heads up, squeaky chair alert! There might be some background noise during the episode, but we promise it won't distract from the heartwarming conversation.
Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode of literary love! We put a lot of heart into these conversations, and we'd love for you to be a part of our bookish community. Rate the episode and share it with your friends who love a good story – the more the merrier!
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Welcome to Best Book Forward, the podcast where I talk to authors about the books that have shaped their lives.
Speaker B:Think of it as like a bookish version of Desert Island Discs.
Speaker B:Today I'm delighted to be joined by Marianne Cronin.
Speaker B:Marianne's beautiful debut, the 100 Years of Lenny and Margot was a huge success.
Speaker B: dent's most uplifting book of: Speaker B:Her latest novel, Eddie Winston is Looking for Love, published this August and is the heartwarming tale of 90 year old Eddie who's searching for the love of his life and his very first kiss.
Speaker B:Marianne joins me today to talk about Eddie Winston is Looking for Love as well as the five books that have shaped her life.
Speaker B:Before we get started, I'd like to apologise to listeners for my squeaky chair.
Speaker B:I was so excited to chat to Marianne that I didn't realise the racket I was making.
Speaker B:I've managed to remove most of the sound and I hope that you won't find it too off putting.
Speaker B:And rest assured, a new chair has been ordered.
Speaker B:I hope you enjoy the show.
Speaker B:Marianne, welcome and thank you so much for joining me on Best Book Forward today.
Speaker A:Okay, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker A:I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker B:We were just laughing because we've actually probably just chatted for a good 20 minutes before we've even pressed record.
Speaker B:So I think we're gonna have a lot of fun chatting today.
Speaker B:So as I just said, I don't feel I can have you here.
Speaker B:I know we're here to talk about Eddie Winston looks for is Looking for Love.
Speaker B:But we have to talk a little bit about Lenny and Margot, which was your debut novel.
Speaker B:It's one of my favorite books.
Speaker B:The characters jump into my mind all the time and when I see it on my bookshelf, I want to give it a little hug.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker B:We were just talking about how it took almost seven years for you to write because you were Busy earning a PhD and writing a best selling novel at the same time.
Speaker B:Excuse me, could you tell us a little bit about that?
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A: rgot started way, way back in: Speaker A:And so I was applying for writing the master's essay.
Speaker A:And of course the natural thing to do then is to open up word and start writing a new novel.
Speaker A:And I'd had this idea for a really long Time that I wanted to set something in a hospital.
Speaker A:Whenever I go to hospital, they're just little worlds, aren't they?
Speaker A:They're just so unique and such strange and unsettling places.
Speaker A:But for the doctors, it's basically a home from home.
Speaker A:They're so comfortable.
Speaker A:And there's something about that feeling of being in hospital that just kind of makes you feel a bit unsettled.
Speaker A:And so I thought, oh, this would be a great place to write a novel.
Speaker A:And I knew that I wanted an old character and a young character.
Speaker A:And as I was writing this master's essay, it was about metaphor.
Speaker A:This idea of their ages adding to 100 came to me.
Speaker A:So the first thing I did was Google it, because I thought someone must have done this.
Speaker A:There's no way this hasn't been done.
Speaker A:And I couldn't find anything.
Speaker A:And the idea of the.
Speaker A:The first line of Lenny is the first thing I ever wrote.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So when I think of Terminal, I think of the airport.
Speaker A:That was the first thing.
Speaker A:And for the very, very first page, Margot was called Edith.
Speaker A:And I didn't know this until I got my old laptop out a little while ago, and I was like, edith, what?
Speaker A:And then the next day, she became Margot, so she was only Edith for a very short time.
Speaker A:And I just started writing, and Lenny's voice felt so real.
Speaker A:And I'd not really had that with writing before.
Speaker A:I'd written a novel and half a novel before that, but.
Speaker A:But there was something about Lenny's voice.
Speaker A:I was just like, oh, there you are.
Speaker A:Like, I know exactly who you are.
Speaker A:You're terrified, but you're incredibly precocious.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I know you.
Speaker A:And so the kind of first draft took about a year and a half, and then it was just this really slow process of writing and rewriting.
Speaker A:And often I'd be in the office of my PhD and be doing a little bit of Lenny and Margaret.
Speaker A:So the PhD took longer than it should because there was a lot of distraction.
Speaker A:But looking back now, I don't really know how I did it, but it was the loveliest distraction to come home and just go to Lenny and Margot's world.
Speaker B:And that's really interesting, isn't it?
Speaker B:Because I often say to people, I think as a reader, you can pick up the right book at the right time, but obviously that was then.
Speaker B:If you'd said, you know, you'd written others in the past.
Speaker B:And I know when I've spoken to other authors, sometimes they say, like, a voice comes to them very strongly.
Speaker B:And so that's amazing that she was there and she is such a.
Speaker B:An incredible character.
Speaker B:Like, there are lines from that book that will pop into my head at random times and I'm just like, oh, that's so lovely.
Speaker B:Such a beautiful read.
Speaker B:So if you haven't picked up Marianne's debut novel, the one the 100 Years of Lenny and Margot, do pick it up, I think.
Speaker B:I'm thinking the 100 years of Lenny and Edith.
Speaker A:It doesn't sound right.
Speaker A:No, it doesn't sound right.
Speaker A:It doesn't.
Speaker A:Names are such a thing.
Speaker A:When I'm writing, I really have to get the right name before I can get into the character.
Speaker B:It's funny.
Speaker B:I can imagine that.
Speaker B:But I guess it's like when you're naming your.
Speaker B:Your babies.
Speaker B:I remember we said we weren't telling anyone the names we were thinking of because I didn't want somebody to be like, oh, I used to work because somebody called that and they were horrible.
Speaker B:That sort of thing.
Speaker A:And, yeah, you have to feel like it's the right name for that character.
Speaker B:Okay, so let's move on to talk about your new novel.
Speaker B:Eddie Winston Is Looking for Love.
Speaker B:So we're recording this mid August.
Speaker B:It's only just come out last week, I think, wasn't it?
Speaker A:Yes, it came out on Thursday.
Speaker B:On Thursday.
Speaker B:Happy publication day to you.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:Feel sure that Eddie and the whole cast of characters are going to win the hearts of readers everywhere.
Speaker B:It is such a beautiful, beautiful read.
Speaker B:So could you start off by just telling us a little bit about the story of Eddie Winston?
Speaker A:Absolutely, yes.
Speaker A:So the book is called Eddie Winston Is Looking for Love.
Speaker A:And eddie Winston is 90 years old and he has never been kissed.
Speaker A:And he is a lovely chap, he's got a heart of gold.
Speaker A:And he spends his days volunteering at his local charity shop.
Speaker A:And because he's really sentimental, when he finds donations of things like old photographs or trinkets or, you know, things that.
Speaker A:Marriage certificates, he holds on to them in the hope that one day he can reunite these things with the person who owned them.
Speaker A:And at the beginning of the book, he finds a series of love letters that were written but not sent.
Speaker A:And he resolves that he's going to reunite the person who these were intended for with these love letters.
Speaker A:And at the same time, he meets Bella, who is in her early 20s, and she arrives at the charity shop to donate her late boyfriend's possessions.
Speaker A:And she is completely, completely heartbroken, absolutely lost.
Speaker A:And Eddie sees that and they form this unlikely friendship, having lunch together.
Speaker A:In the park in Birmingham city centre, which is called Pigeon park by locals but is really the Cathedral Park.
Speaker A:And when Bella learns that Eddie has never been kissed, she decides that she's going to help him to have his first kiss.
Speaker A:And that's kind of where the adventure begins.
Speaker B:It is such a brilliant, brilliant read.
Speaker B:I just love it so much.
Speaker B:So let's start off by talking about Eddie.
Speaker B:I fell head over heels in love with him.
Speaker B:He is just fantastic.
Speaker B:He has a really beautiful soul.
Speaker B:He's eccentric, he's fun, he's so full of love, like, oh my gosh.
Speaker B:He's also a bit of an unlikely style icon.
Speaker B:He has some brilliant wardrobe descriptions.
Speaker B:And I guess what I'd really love to know, where did Eddie come from?
Speaker B:Is there a real Eddie in your life?
Speaker B:Or where did you find the inspiration for him?
Speaker A:So, Eddie.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So the original inspiration for the book came from a song lyric.
Speaker A:And when I was writing Lenny and Margot, I had a playlist of songs that I would play over and over and over again for certain scenes.
Speaker A:So for Margot's final chapter, there's a song called the Rambling Rover, which is performed by Silly wizard.
Speaker A:And I would play that just on repeat.
Speaker A:As I was writing, as I was editing, it just had this feeling of Margot's kind of final chapter.
Speaker A:And after Lenny and Margot had come out in the UK and the us, I was starting to panic about book two.
Speaker A:I'd had a few attempts, always involving ghosts.
Speaker A:I don't know why my brain immediately defaults to ghost stories when I'm feeling a bit stuck.
Speaker A:And I was in bed with absolutely crippling morning sickness.
Speaker A:And I listened to my Lenny and Margot playlist and this song that I've heard, you know, hundreds of times, there's a lyric in it that stood out to me.
Speaker A:And the song is all about the songwriter.
Speaker A:He's traveled the world with his band and he's talking about how there's all kinds of different people in the world and he describes them as fabulous, well meaning lunatics, which is very much the vibe of my writing.
Speaker A:And in the lyric he says, there are men of over 90 that have never yet kissed a girl.
Speaker A:And I just thought to myself, just suddenly I was like, I know exactly who that person is.
Speaker A:Like, I could picture him and I was like, what if you hadn't lost hope?
Speaker A:What if you got to 90 and you were still waiting?
Speaker A:And who is that person and why is he like this?
Speaker A:And what if he tried again?
Speaker A:And so that that was where Eddie came from.
Speaker A:And then in terms of his actual characterization, there were two men that inspired him from my real life, the first of which is my old piano teacher, who I think when I was learning, when I was about 8 or 9, he was probably in his late 70s and he was just such a gorgeous person.
Speaker A:When I was little, I thought he looked like the bfg and that's who he reminded me of.
Speaker A:And just so warm, so friendly, so calm.
Speaker A:And then my lecturer at, at Lancaster University, Mick Short, he always wore bow ties.
Speaker A:And he, again, was this absolute character.
Speaker A:So much fun and the bow ties, I just really stuck with me.
Speaker A:And I thought, oh, that's, that's a nice character trait for somebody.
Speaker A:And then added in a little bit of, you know, creative element too.
Speaker A:But those two people in my life definitely formed the beginning of Eddie.
Speaker B:Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker B:That is amazing.
Speaker B:He is so, so brilliant.
Speaker B:It's probably, I think, one of my favorite characters this year I've read so far.
Speaker B:So something you just said there just made me sort of like, oh, interesting ghost stories.
Speaker B:Would you ever consider.
Speaker B:I mean, I love what you do and I don't want to send you off on any random path, but would you ever consider writing something ghosty or thrillery or.
Speaker A:Oh, 100%.
Speaker A:I love speculative fiction and I especially love fiction where it's set in the real world, but there's elements of ghosts.
Speaker A:So I just loved Over My Dead Body by Mads Evans, where the protagonist has been murdered and she has to solve her own murder to get into heaven.
Speaker A:And the only person she can work with is her next door neighbour who hates her because she's the only person you can see.
Speaker A:It's a fan.
Speaker A:Oh, it's such a good book.
Speaker A:And when I read it, I was like, this is why my ghost stories are terrible, because this is how you write a ghost story.
Speaker A:And so my first novel that I completed was a ghost story.
Speaker A:And then in lockdown, there was another attempt at ghost stories.
Speaker A:If I can ever get there and make it not awful, I definitely will.
Speaker B:Maybe you're just waiting for that, right, ghosty voice, then like Lenny and Eddie, that you need to hear their voice strongly or.
Speaker B:That would be exciting.
Speaker B:Don't make it too scary, though, because I'm a real chicken.
Speaker A:Oh, same.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, it's going to be like a fun ghost story.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Excuse me.
Speaker B:So although the story is really about Eddie looking for love, I feel also it was very much about Bella looking for the love of a friend to help her heal from this grief that she's so Lost in.
Speaker B:Maybe Eddie wasn't the obvious choice of best friend for her, but they have such a special friendship and they really help each other in so many ways.
Speaker B:Obviously, in Lenny and Margot, you explored intergenerational friendships.
Speaker B:And I love the way you told both Lenny and Margot and Eddie and Bella's friendships.
Speaker B:They're so believable and just so charming and lovely.
Speaker B:What is it that draws you to these stories?
Speaker A:Do you know, at the beginning, it was not intentional to write a second intergenerational friendship story.
Speaker A:And for a while I tried to make Bella older just to try and get away from the idea of a second intergenerational friendship, but it just didn't quite sit right.
Speaker A:And Bella was so clear to me and I could see her.
Speaker A:So really.
Speaker A:So I thought, no, I'm going to have to go with this character as she's kind of arrived in my brain.
Speaker A:I think what I love about Eddie and Bella is that Eddie has absolutely no experience in love.
Speaker A:And Bella has had so much experience in love, she's basically had a lifetime's worth of experience condensed down into sort of five or six years.
Speaker A:You know, she's loved and she's gone through this terrible grief.
Speaker A:And so they have quite a lot to teach each other.
Speaker A:Eddie has the wisdom of living and of life, but Bella has the wisdom of love and romance.
Speaker A:And so rather than having the older character bring all the wisdom and the younger character purely learn from them, I found it really fun to have them teaching each other different things and to kind of balance each other out.
Speaker A:And I think it is that sort of feeling of they couldn't not be friends.
Speaker A:You know, it's definitely not intentional.
Speaker A:They spot each other in the park and they, you know, they have lunch once and then there's lunch again.
Speaker A:And I think we all know that they're both at the park looking for each other as time goes on, but there's never an agreed decision to have lunch together.
Speaker A:And I think for Bella, she's very feisty, she's very lost.
Speaker A:She's very strong willed.
Speaker A:She's a very strong personality.
Speaker A:And all the people that are her age, they're doing different things.
Speaker A:They're going out, they're drinking, they're having fun.
Speaker A:And she's got this real loss that she's dealing with.
Speaker A:So in a way, she feels a lot older than she really is.
Speaker A:And I think that's why Eddie is a perfect balance for her, because she can just be with Eddie.
Speaker A:She feels like she can be calm.
Speaker A:She doesn't need to kind of pretend to be happy when she's not.
Speaker A:She can be really honest with him because she's not trying to sort of create a Persona of someone that isn't grieving.
Speaker A:And so I think that's where their relationship started to work.
Speaker B:And there's some really special moments.
Speaker B:I thought about it when I was sort of preparing for this again last night.
Speaker B:I was like.
Speaker B:It was almost like love at first sight for them, but in a friendship way.
Speaker B:And when she comes into the charity shop, I just thought Eddie had just such a remarkable way when he sort of walks around the counter and just offers hug.
Speaker B:And it was just like they fell in love instantly, didn't they?
Speaker B:It was just beautiful.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think that's totally possible with friends.
Speaker A:Sometimes you meet someone and you're like, oh, you are fantastic.
Speaker A:I have to gravitate towards you.
Speaker A:I have to know more.
Speaker A:And I think the idea that Eddie offers Bella this hug when she's so upset donating Jake's belongings, the fact that she accepts is this immediate sign that they are similar people to their core.
Speaker A:You know, a lot of people, if someone tried to hug them that they didn't know, they'd be like, oh, oh, no, thank you.
Speaker A:But Bella's like, come on, then, bring it in.
Speaker A:You know, let's.
Speaker A:Let's have a hug.
Speaker A:And so I think that starts their friendship off from this really kind of sweet place.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm going off, off on one now because I'm not even looking at my notes.
Speaker B:I've just got to.
Speaker B:Just something just popped into my mind there.
Speaker B:When you talk about the voices of the characters, I know some people will say, Some authors will say that they start off with a very strict plan of what's going to happen.
Speaker B:Did Eddie and Bella sort of lead you a little bit, or did you always know what was going to happen with the two of them?
Speaker A:I am not a planner in any way, and I wish that I were, because when I listened to writers talking, like when Matt Kane was saying he plans everything out and then sends it to his publisher, I was like, what?
Speaker A:That's so organised.
Speaker A:That sounds amazing.
Speaker A:How do you do that?
Speaker A:Whereas for me, the first 50,000 words of Eddie, which I wrote just before I went on maternity leave, he had two jobs.
Speaker A:It was a lot darker.
Speaker A:His character was the same, but the actual tone of the book was very different.
Speaker A:And so when I came back from maternity leave, I had these notes from my lovely editor at Doubleday and my agent, Sue Ann Armstrong.
Speaker A:And I was like, right, well, Then we're going to start with a bank document.
Speaker A:Because I had Eddie's character and I had Bella's character, but I didn't have the tone right and I didn't have all these intricacies right.
Speaker A:So I started again.
Speaker A:And so I think for me, it's definitely a case of the characters.
Speaker A:Take me there.
Speaker A:I knew the last line, so when I write the first page, I always know the last line because I like things to come full circle.
Speaker A:So I had that, but I did not know any of the who's or the where's or the hows.
Speaker A:And so Eddie and Bella, actually, it sounds like such a cop out to say the book writes itself, but once I'd started writing their lunches in Pigeon Park, I was like, oh, all of this extraneous stuff, I had him going speed dating, I had him going line dancing.
Speaker A:Like, all of that could just lift out.
Speaker A:Because I already had the core of the book here and they could take me.
Speaker A:It didn't need to be all these extra things.
Speaker A:It could just be Eddie and Bella going on this journey together.
Speaker B:That's beautiful.
Speaker B:And, you know, I hear a real mix of authors saying they plan and they don't plan, but your books are doing really, really well.
Speaker B:I mean, Lenya Margot was at the Independent's most uplifting read.
Speaker B:It won on the Best Book Forward awards, didn't it?
Speaker B:Best debut as well.
Speaker B:So whatever's working for you is working.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I make a lot more work for myself, but I think, yeah, it's just.
Speaker A:It seems to just be my process.
Speaker B:I think your process is working beautifully, so thank you.
Speaker B:Something else I'd like to explore, talk to you about is the way you explore through the book.
Speaker B:Signs from loved Ones.
Speaker B:So Bella is looking for a sign from Jake.
Speaker B:Eddie talks to birds, which I do.
Speaker B:If I ever see a robin looking at me, I'm like, hi, Mom.
Speaker B:I really believe in little signs.
Speaker B:And there are some really beautiful and touching scenes.
Speaker B:I'm not going to ruin it.
Speaker B:But we spoke before we started recording about, oh, my gosh, there's the most beautiful scene in this book that had me just in floods of tears.
Speaker B:It's so beautiful.
Speaker B:So is that something that you believe in, then?
Speaker B:Signs from loved ones appearing?
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:I think a lot of the sort of imagery and signs and symbols, I love that sort of thing.
Speaker A:So in my family, when we see elephants, that's my nan saying hi.
Speaker A:And so elephants always sort of have that symbol for me.
Speaker A:And I know a lot of people, you know, some people it's butterflies, some people, it's birds.
Speaker A:I wrote a short story for Simple Things magazine just after Lenny Margot came out and it was about an older gentleman who was looking for a sign and his wife sent him a cat.
Speaker A:And then he finds in a drawer a little note saying, when I'm gone, I shall send a cat.
Speaker A:And so I think he was actually a very, very early, like, nugget of Eddie in my brain, way, way before I started writing Eddie.
Speaker A:But I love the ide signs and symbols.
Speaker A:And then obviously in the charity shop, Eddie comes across a lot of different things and one of those things is actually quite a few are actually from my real life.
Speaker A:So he finds a note written by an older gentleman and it's a list of things and along the top, in different handwriting, it says, gwen's last list.
Speaker A: my grandfather passed away in: Speaker A: an, who died way, way back in: Speaker A:It's on my shelf and I just thought, oh, that's so beautiful.
Speaker A:He'd kept it for all these years.
Speaker A:It was just in the bottom of a box and, you know, just this symbol of kind of love that just doesn't go, just that just stays with someone and to be so treasured that you're even your shopping list is sacred to someone I thought was just the loveliest thing.
Speaker A:So I've got it in a very special box on a shelf in my office and so that had to go into the book.
Speaker B:Oh, that's so lovely.
Speaker B:And having read it now, knowing that list and that it was a real one, that's really, really special.
Speaker B:I loved the way Eddie found the things in the charity shop that people would have, you know, probably thought was junk and thrown away, but he saves them to try and reunite.
Speaker B:I thought that was so special.
Speaker B:There's one where he finds, he's through the book and he finds photos and of a young couple and he takes them out and he says, I'll keep these lovers safe.
Speaker B:I was like, oh, you're just gorgeous.
Speaker B:We need more.
Speaker B:The world needs more eddies.
Speaker A:I think, oh, 100.
Speaker A:I need to meet my Eddie at some point soon because it would lighten my life.
Speaker B:I would like an Eddie in my life.
Speaker B:So if there are any 90 year old gentlemen who wear cheetah, do you know what I'm just thinking, am I setting myself up for something?
Speaker B:Might this go a bit wrong?
Speaker A:You're gonna get some pictures on Instagram.
Speaker B:Yeah, actually, scrap that, scrap that, scrap that.
Speaker B:I'll let fate lead me to an Eddie.
Speaker B:If there is an Eddie in my future.
Speaker A:Well, the funny thing with Eddie's cheater shirt is the other day I was thinking, it's so clear in my head, this bottle green shirt with cheetahs on.
Speaker A:I was like, where did I cut that from?
Speaker A:The curtains in my office have cheetahs all over them.
Speaker B:Oh, that's funny.
Speaker B:Your subconscious has picked it up.
Speaker A:And I thought, oh, there's me thinking, oh, I'm so creative.
Speaker A:And it's just the curtains in my office.
Speaker B:Well, it is creative because how many people pick up things from, you know, everyday items around them and turn them into something in a book that's like, you know, I don't.
Speaker B:So, Marianne, your novels are a beautiful blend of humour and heartbreak and insight.
Speaker B:I think there is a lot of wit and wisdom to be found in your pages, and I feel like you put a lot of your heart into your books, and I really believe that readers will be getting a lot from your books.
Speaker B:I know I have.
Speaker B:Could you tell us your experience of writing these novels and what the response has been like from readers so far?
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:So the.
Speaker A:The journey for Eddie was very different from Lenny and Margot.
Speaker A:I had so much doubt, I think, because when I wrote Lenny and Margot, it was just for me and nobody had seen it, nobody knew about it.
Speaker A:I was very embarrassed to tell anybody that I was writing a book, which I think Beth o' Leary was saying in your podcast, that there was embarrassment.
Speaker A:I thought, oh, thank.
Speaker A:Thank goodness, because I get really embarrassed.
Speaker A:I can't have anybody sit behind me when I'm typing.
Speaker A:I can't have anybody see my screen.
Speaker A:I am such a hermit.
Speaker A:I'm like, nobody may know about these little people in my.
Speaker A:In my head until they're on the page.
Speaker A:And so with Eddie, I was really worried that I just couldn't do it again.
Speaker A:You know, Lenny and Margot had been received so wonderfully and just beyond any expectations I could ever have had.
Speaker A:And the reader reviews, which mean the absolute world to me and are printed on the paperback, some of them I can't read because they're too nice.
Speaker A:And it makes me kind of sort of clam up because I'm like, oh, that's too nice.
Speaker A:I don't deserve it.
Speaker A:I can't look at this.
Speaker A:And so with Eddie, I was really afraid that I wouldn't be able to find something that would feel right.
Speaker A:You know, I'd had these attempts, and then I was thinking, oh, goodness, what if I just cannot do it?
Speaker A:And Obviously, Lenny and Margot is a lot sadder, I think, in tone, like, it's not a sad book, but I do think it has a lot of sad themes and elements.
Speaker A:And Eddie, I think, tonally, is a bit more hopeful.
Speaker A:And so when I was writing, that actually helped spur me on because I was like, oh, I see.
Speaker A:So this is in my head.
Speaker A:The theme of Lenny and Margot is of saying goodbye and letting go.
Speaker A:And the theme of Eddie Winston is trying again.
Speaker A:And so I feel like those kind of different themes help me to feel like, oh, it's a different book and it's about something different.
Speaker A:And obviously we're, you know, three days out from publication, so it's still the sort of unknown.
Speaker A:But the reader reviews I've seen so far have been amazing, really lovely.
Speaker A:And when people say things like, oh, it's as good as Lenny and Margot, that just absolutely.
Speaker A:That means so much because I just had so much anxiety and doubt about whether I could be a writer and could do this more than once or whether I just got incredibly lucky with Lenny and Margot and I needed seven years to write something else.
Speaker B:Oh, well, you're fabulous.
Speaker B:And I always feel sorry for authors and they come when they have one.
Speaker B:You know, their debut is brilliant and really well received because I think, oh, that must be really scary then, you know, when people are, you know, oh, I can't wait to see what you're going to do next.
Speaker B:There's a lot of.
Speaker B:There's a lot riding on it.
Speaker B:So I think that must be really quite scary.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:And obviously the publisher is looking for a book that's similar but different, and so find.
Speaker A:So walking that line is really tricky because what elements do you make similar?
Speaker A:What do you make different?
Speaker A:Once I had Eddie's voice, there was a line where I got Eddie's voice and it actually got cut from the book.
Speaker A:And it was the right decision, but it was a line that said, I look like a turtle that tried to take on human form and mist.
Speaker A:If it wasn't for my hat, people might try to return me to the zoo.
Speaker A:And as soon as I.
Speaker A:As soon as I wrote that, I was like, oh, there he is.
Speaker A:And I really.
Speaker A:My whole.
Speaker A:I was just like, oh, okay, you're here.
Speaker A:And I had this sort of little feeling of like, okay, maybe I can do this, because now I've got Eddie.
Speaker A:But until he arrived in my brain, I was a big mess.
Speaker B:I mean, that shows, isn't it, that I was saying you put your heart into your books and, you know, and that's wonderful as a reader.
Speaker B:So thank you.
Speaker B:Looking at what you've just done then, now with your second book out there, if somebody was sitting here now, what if you could go even back to when you first picked up your pen to start writing Lenny and Margot, what advice would you give to yourself then and for the second book as well?
Speaker A:Oh, I think that's a great question.
Speaker A:I think for Lenny and Margot, I would say just keep going and have, have that hope and have that faith because, you know, when you're.
Speaker A:I had no connections in the publishing world.
Speaker A:I didn't know anybody.
Speaker A:I was just me writing my book on my own in the evenings.
Speaker A:And there were definitely times when I thought, you know, this is just what, this is just for me.
Speaker A:Like, is this a waste of time?
Speaker A:You know, nothing's going to happen.
Speaker A:This is good.
Speaker A:You have no sense of perspective because nobody's reading it, so it's just you.
Speaker A:And I think definitely persevere through the rejections as well because it's really easy when you get that first round of rejections to go like, all right, then this isn't the one.
Speaker A:I spent two years rewriting it after the first wave of rejections from Lucy agents.
Speaker A:And, you know, keeping going, I think would be the message for 24 year old Marianne back then.
Speaker A:For Eddie, I would say keep having fun because Eddie felt quite fun quite early on and I thought, well, this can't be right because Lenny and Margot has some really serious themes and Eddie just felt like I was having an absolute hoot of a time and I felt like, oh, this is really fun.
Speaker A:Should this be fun?
Speaker A:This can't be right.
Speaker A:So I think just lean into the fun would probably be the advice for that.
Speaker B:Perfect.
Speaker B:And just something I just want to just go back on just because, I mean, I know when I was very lucky I had an advanced copy.
Speaker B:So I read this for the first time.
Speaker B:I don't know when I did a couple of months ago maybe, I feel like.
Speaker B:And when I post it on Instagram, the messages that were coming through like, oh, is it sad?
Speaker B:But even with Lenny and Margot, as you say, it is a sad book.
Speaker B:It's what I would describe as beautiful sad.
Speaker B:Like, you know, there's.
Speaker B:It is a fact of life that, you know, people will die, young people will have tragic circumstances as well.
Speaker B:And I think you explore it so beautifully with so much compassion that yes, it is sad, but it's not sort of crushing sad.
Speaker B:There's like a real sort of beauty in it.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:One of the things.
Speaker A:No, it does.
Speaker A:And I think one of the things I've loved seeing in reviews for Eddie is this message that it's an uplifting book, it's a joyful book and I think I wouldn't want anybody to be afraid going into Eddie Winston.
Speaker A:And it's not that there's not delicate and sensitive themes, because there are, but Eddie Winston is, as I said, it's much more about second chances, you know, opportunities, having hope.
Speaker A:And I think that's kind of the message I'm hoping readers will see when they're sort of deciding whether or not to read Eddie.
Speaker B:Well, I think they should, I think everyone should.
Speaker B:And I also think you should read Lenny and Margot because it's also one of my favourites.
Speaker B:So Eddie Winston is Looking for Love is out now and it really is so beautiful.
Speaker B:That's one I highly recommend, so please do pick it up.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:Before we move on to talk about the books that have shaped Marianne's life, I just want to remind listeners that all of the books that we're talking about, we've already had a couple, will be linked in the show notes.
Speaker B:So don't worry about trying to keep up.
Speaker B:I will have them all there ready for you.
Speaker B:Marianne, how did you find choosing your five books then?
Speaker B:Was it difficult for you?
Speaker A:Oh, this was tricky.
Speaker A:Oh, it's a tricky challenge.
Speaker A:I'm not ready to go on my desert island because the suitcase is going to be very full and there's going to be no clothes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I decided to make it easier on myself to kind of pick a theme when I was choosing my five.
Speaker A:And so the theme that I went with was just my writing journey.
Speaker A:So books that have shaped me from the beginning of writing through to Lenny and Margot being published, because I felt like that it gave me through line.
Speaker B:Did you always want to be a writer?
Speaker A:Oh, yes, 100%.
Speaker A:So there's a very famous little sugar paper book that my mum found in the attic when she moved house during lockdown and it's probably my first novel.
Speaker A:It's, you know, hand drawn illustrations, giant sort of five year old writing and I've made it into a book and so I think that sort of will to be a writer was there from the very beginning for me.
Speaker B:That's really interesting.
Speaker B:So as we were chatting before, so my twins are coming up to 12.
Speaker B:My daughter has been writing little novels since she was about the same age and we've just got boxes of all these, like little things that she's doing.
Speaker B:She's actually Writing one at the moment that she was reading to me yesterday and I was like, wow, these aren't like little sort of stickman drawings and very basic plots anymore.
Speaker B:Like, this is.
Speaker B:This is becoming quite interesting.
Speaker A:So, so exciting.
Speaker A:Imagine if you get to be the first person to review her book.
Speaker A:That would be so amazing.
Speaker B:Oh, that'd be so awkward though, wouldn't it?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, that's true.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I do feel like when I'm.
Speaker A:When people who I really know are reading the books, I'm like, this isn't you.
Speaker A:But this was stolen from an experience we had.
Speaker A:So like, I give people a little warning.
Speaker B:Oh, that must be so interesting if you have a friend who.
Speaker B:And you're like, oh, is that me in there?
Speaker A:I think it's weird for them as well because a lot of my friends have said that they can hear me in all my characters.
Speaker A:And so I think it's harder for them to sort of come to a book I've written sort of in the way you would as a reader to a normal book.
Speaker A:Because they're like, oh, well, that's the thing that Marianne would definitely say, or that's a place we went to, or that's a thing we did.
Speaker A:So I think it.
Speaker A:It's definitely probably quite a strange experience for them.
Speaker B:You almost need to give them a proof without your name on.
Speaker A:Yes, I'll be like, this is by a friend.
Speaker B:Well, actually that could be really dangerous then.
Speaker B:Could they?
Speaker A:Oh, gosh, yes.
Speaker A:And I always tell people like when I.
Speaker A:If I meet someone and they're like, oh, what do you do?
Speaker A:And I tell them about Lenny and Margot A lot of the time I'm meeting people now because I have a two year old and they've got children or very small babies.
Speaker A:And I often say, like, don't worry about reading Lenny and Margot just now.
Speaker A:If you've got a small baby, it's not the time.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think that is, like, when I recommend books, I always try to sort of, you know, think about if there's anything that might.
Speaker B:I mean, obviously you can't cover everything.
Speaker B:It's like.
Speaker B:But yes, I always try to be a bit conscious about what I'm recommending as well.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So out of your five, I have written two of them and loved them.
Speaker A:Amazing.
Speaker B:I have one sat on my tbr which has been there for a little while.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker B:So let's get started.
Speaker B:Okay, do you want to tell us about your first book choice then?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So my first book choice is called this Lullaby by Sarah dessen.
Speaker A: It's a YA book published in: Speaker A:And this book is the book that made me realise not that I wanted to be a writer, but that I was maybe already a writer or becoming one.
Speaker A:And so even though I haven't read this book in 20 years, I realised last night I can still quote bits from it and I can still remember song lyrics from it.
Speaker A:And it shapes me in a way that sort of couldn't have been anticipated, I think because my mum bought me this big box of YA books to read through the summer and this was one that I took on holiday with me.
Speaker A:So to describe the book, it's as I said, a YA novel.
Speaker A:It's a romance novel about an 18 year old called Remy Starr who is spending the last summer at home before she goes off to university.
Speaker A:It's set in the US and she has a mother who is an author called Barbara Starr and she meets this young man called Dexter and they have this kind of flirtation and then she decides she doesn't want to be with him.
Speaker A:And he's kind of the first literary character where I was like, I think I have a crush on this character, he's such a nerd.
Speaker A:And I was like, oh my gosh.
Speaker A:And he's kind of like clumsy and awkward and I was like, oh, wow, I have such a crush on this character.
Speaker A:And so it's basically just her summer just sort of falling in love with this boy and getting ready to leave home.
Speaker A:And yeah, it set me off in reading.
Speaker A:I think YA is such a sort of gateway drug.
Speaker A:If you find the right book at the right time, it sets you off as a reader.
Speaker A:And I mean, when I was writing Lenny and Margot, I did wonder if it was YA when I was pitching it to agents and I thought, is this ya?
Speaker A:Because Lenny's so young and it's quite rare to read an sort of adult fiction with such a young protagonist.
Speaker A:And actually won a YA award from the Library association in America because it's.
Speaker A:Yeah, over there it's definitely found a kind of double.
Speaker A:A double audience.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker A:So, yeah, and there's not, there's anything wrong with it being ya, but when I was trying to work out if it was or not, I was like, I have no idea, someone's gonna have to tell me.
Speaker A:So, yes, in the book.
Speaker A:So Remy's mother is a novelist and Remy describes how she finds little notes and ideas for stories all over the house and she even finds one in her tampon box.
Speaker A:And I went back and read it yesterday just to make sure this did happen.
Speaker A:I didn't hallucinate the storyline.
Speaker A:And reading that aged 14, I was like, oh, so people who do that, they're writers.
Speaker A:I thought everybody was doing this.
Speaker A:I thought everybody was writing down, like character ideas.
Speaker A:And that holiday I'd already taken the hotel, like notepaper, stationery, and written down half an idea for a novel and then hidden it in my suitcase because I didn't want my siblings to find it.
Speaker A:And I was like, oh, so this is.
Speaker A:That's a writer thing.
Speaker A:And it started to kind of connect in my brain.
Speaker A:And I think that's why that book will always stay with me because it was just sort of seeing myself through that lens for the first time and thinking, oh, maybe, maybe I'm a writer, maybe that's what I'm doing.
Speaker A:Maybe I'm starting to become a writer.
Speaker B:That is amazing.
Speaker B:I mean, I love that when you see, you know, when reader see themselves in books or things that they can relate, but how incredible that it's gone on to inspire you to keep going.
Speaker B:And at 14 you think that there's so many other things you could be doing or, you know, easily been swayed off that path.
Speaker B:So that's amazing.
Speaker B:You say about the YAs and finding the right book at the right time.
Speaker B:So my daughter is a massive reader as well and she, I think we've just had that.
Speaker B:She's just read One of us is lying and I can't remember who wrote it.
Speaker B:I want to say I can't think of her name.
Speaker B:I'll have to put it in the show notes.
Speaker B:But that has definitely been her book.
Speaker B:She is just constantly like.
Speaker B:And this one, they lie.
Speaker B:Something has really clipped in her and just so she's constantly now like, mum, can we go, can we go and find a really good YA book?
Speaker B:For me, I'm like, oh, here we go.
Speaker A:It's so good.
Speaker A:And there's something about ya.
Speaker A:And the book is set in the summer and I was reading it in the summer and I'm a total summer person and I just, I feel like there's something so special about that feeling of like, when you're that age, sort of like, you know, 13 to sort of 16, everything's ahead of you.
Speaker A:And there's so much to sort of like, so much anticipation of what your life is going to be.
Speaker A:And I think ya, you know, specifically marketed towards girls.
Speaker A:That's kind of romantic sort of side.
Speaker A:It's so important, I think, to find those books when you're that age because it can give you that kind of Roadmap or that idea of like, oh, this is what other people are feeling and you're not alone in this.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah, and I just.
Speaker A:I've reread that book maybe three or four times and I never reread books, so that's one of the only books I would say that I've reread several times.
Speaker A:And I just downloaded it on my Kindle app and I was like, I think I'm going to have to read this again because I want to go back into that world.
Speaker B:It's interesting, isn't it, when you read something even from a few years ago, like how your perspective of it will change.
Speaker B:I do reread a few.
Speaker B:And sometimes when you read it in different sort of stages of your life, you read it differently as well.
Speaker B:So it'd be interesting to see how you get on.
Speaker A:Yeah, it'd be so interesting.
Speaker A:I'm hoping I still enjoy it because that'd be terrible.
Speaker B:Wouldn't you, Like.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:If I was like, what was this?
Speaker A:But yes, the protagonist, her father has died.
Speaker A:He was a one hit wonder songwriter.
Speaker A:And so the book opens with these song lyrics and I could still repeat them to you now.
Speaker A:Like, I just sort of.
Speaker A:That book was just such a core piece of my kind of becoming a reader and becoming a writer that it's.
Speaker A:I think it's going to be in there forever.
Speaker B:I love that.
Speaker B:That's amazing.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I am so excited because your next book, I mean, if you know me, you will know how much I love this book.
Speaker B:So tell us why this one is what it is and why it's on your list.
Speaker A:So the next book is the Unlikely Pilgrimage of Harold Fry by Rachel Joyce and Where to Begin.
Speaker A:I mean, what a book.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:So the reason this book is sort of part of the journey of me becoming a writer is that I was.
Speaker A:So I'd finished my undergraduate degree and I decided that I wanted to do a master's and I was interviewing for the creative Writing masters at Kent University, and I was driving there, which is about 7 hours drive from where I was living at the time, and I stopped off at the motorway services and I bought this book and I bought the next book on the list as well.
Speaker A:So I had them both.
Speaker A:And they are so fundamental to the kind of beginnings of the idea of Lenny and Margot that I feel like.
Speaker A:I feel like they almost need referencing at the end of Lenny and Margot because they were so important.
Speaker A:So if you haven't read Harold Fry, it's about Howard Fry who receives A letter saying that an old friend is dying.
Speaker A:And instead of posting his letter that he replies to her, he begins to walk.
Speaker A:And I think it's something like 600 miles from.
Speaker B:I can't remember.
Speaker B:Yeah, Long, long way.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So he embarks on this incredible walk and lots of things happen along the way, but it's his pilgrimage to try and bring this letter to this person who meant so much to him.
Speaker A:And what I loved about this book was it was the balancing of the kind of the whimsical elements, the exciting elements, the hopeful elements and the really, really sad bits.
Speaker A:You know, there are some absolutely gut punching scenes.
Speaker A:And, you know, it's such a beautiful story.
Speaker A:And I think the thing I loved about it was that he's a normal person doing something extraordinary.
Speaker A:And I think that there's a lot of that in Lenny and Margot.
Speaker A:So I think that this book was fundamental to this idea of exploring characters who are quietly, you know, because he's not a showy person, he's quietly doing this thing.
Speaker A:And obviously Lenny and Margot, they're doing their art project just in the hospital.
Speaker A:They're not.
Speaker A:They're not on Instagram, they're not sort of sharing it with the world.
Speaker A:It's just for them.
Speaker A:And it's just this kind of internal.
Speaker A:I think pilgrimage is a great word, you know, because it almost feels religious in this kind of dedication to doing something.
Speaker A:And then many, many years later, I ended up sitting in the offices of the lady who is Rachel Joyce's agent.
Speaker A:And it was one of those moments of like, oh, my goodness, like, what is happening?
Speaker A:So, yeah, so my agency is the same agency, Rachel Joyce.
Speaker A:Very strange.
Speaker B:How amazing.
Speaker B:And I mean, I love.
Speaker B:I love the whole series of these books, actually.
Speaker B:Like Maureen Queenie, I just love them.
Speaker B:Such, such special books.
Speaker B:And yeah, I think Rachel's an incredible writer as well.
Speaker B:She's just.
Speaker B:I would pick up anything that she writes.
Speaker B:I just love her.
Speaker B:It's the second time she's been put actually on the series, but not for Harold Fry, which I was like.
Speaker B:It was Ms. Benson's beat, which I loved.
Speaker B:And that was picked by Helen Parris, who wrote the Invisible Women's Club.
Speaker B:So, yes, I'm really happy to see her pop up again because I love her.
Speaker A:Oh, they're so gorgeous.
Speaker A:But yeah, I should say I didn't end up doing the Masters at Kent.
Speaker A:I ended up going to.
Speaker A:I did get the place, which is.
Speaker A:But I ended up going to the University of Birmingham to do Literary linguistics because that felt like just a Slightly better match where I was.
Speaker A:And I think I was scared to study creative writing because I was afraid that it would rob the joy out of it somehow, which I actually think wasn't necessarily to be the case.
Speaker A:But I was very into literary linguistics.
Speaker A:So it felt like when I read the description at Birmingham, I was like, and it doesn't exist anymore that Masters.
Speaker A:I think there's only maybe 12 people that have that Masters because they discontinued it quite quickly.
Speaker A:But it was.
Speaker A:That was the one for me and that was where I started writing Lenny.
Speaker A:So it did kind of all.
Speaker B:And I wonder how many of those 12 who have that also wrote a best selling novel at the same time.
Speaker A:We'll have to do a free time information request.
Speaker B:Okay, let's move on to your third book, Joyce.
Speaker B:Another one that I've loved as well.
Speaker A:So this is, I love this title, the 100 Year Old man who Climbed out of the Window and Disappeared by Jonas.
Speaker A:Jonas.
Speaker A:And this was the second book that I bought at the motorway services.
Speaker A:And it's funny how a quick decision like that can you just pick up a book just randomly.
Speaker A:It can become such an important book in your life.
Speaker A:You know, there's so many times that we just pick a book and sometimes it affects us and sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker A:But I have such a clear memory of that day and buying these books.
Speaker A:So this is about obviously a 100 year old man who.
Speaker A:It's his 100th birthday and they're throwing him a party at the care home he's in and he climbs out the window and disappears.
Speaker A:And he ends up taking a suitcase that turns out to be full of money that has a slightly dodgy origin story.
Speaker A:And so we have his adventures in the present day and we also have the flashback scenes where a young Alan Carlson is going around the world and getting into all these incredible outlandish scrapes.
Speaker A:And the thing I loved about this book was it's so playful, it's so cheeky and it's so clever.
Speaker A:Like there are some ideas, like even just the eternal student, Benny, just this idea of him doing all these degrees and never finishing them.
Speaker A:There's so much intelligence in there.
Speaker A:And I love the idea of this older character who is not done with living and who doesn't want to be sort of patronized in terms of, you know, this special birthday party for his 100th year.
Speaker A:Like he's not finished living and he's not finished getting in trouble.
Speaker A:And I like this idea of, you know, him being in trouble and cheeky and not always on the right side of history.
Speaker A:And I just thought he was such a.
Speaker A:Such a great character, and I think so.
Speaker A:I read this book when I was in Vietnam, just traveling around.
Speaker A:And so that, again, has really specific memories for me.
Speaker A:And I think Obviously the number 100 appears in Lenny and Margot, so I think something had gone in there for Lenny and Margot.
Speaker A:But I just love this idea of seeing a character, seeing their past and seeing them now and seeing how the world tries to treat them and then finding out how they've lived and realizing that they should be treated completely differently because they're a total rebel, a total renegade.
Speaker A:And I tried to put a tiny bit of that into Margot.
Speaker B:Oh, it's brilliant.
Speaker B:That was a book that I don't remember if anyone recommend.
Speaker B:I mean, it's obviously pre Instagram days, but I don't remember who recommended it to me or how I picked it up.
Speaker B:But I remember sitting down to start reading it and thinking, I'm not sure about this, actually, because it's quite.
Speaker B:I remember the COVID being quite sort of just work.
Speaker B:I mean, it's a long title, but just being like, oh, I don't know about this one.
Speaker B:And then just being like, hooked instantly is one I flew through.
Speaker B:Another one I'd quite like to read again, actually, because it's been such a long time.
Speaker B:I'd be interested to read that one again.
Speaker B:I'm noticing with your choices, is that second.
Speaker B:No, all of them.
Speaker B:You remember where you were when you read them.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So you really link your place as well, which I love that when you look at a book.
Speaker B:I read that when I was on holiday and things.
Speaker B:It's so lovely.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's amazing how a book can bring back a feeling as well.
Speaker A:Just like how you were feeling at the time you read it and what you were doing and yeah, I think that's one of the things I love about reading is you kind of create these.
Speaker A:Sorry, these little time capsules of yourself in the books that are on your bookshelf.
Speaker B:Yeah, you do.
Speaker B:You do.
Speaker B:Okay, this is the next one is the one that's on my tbr.
Speaker B:And I think I actually have two books by this author on my tbr.
Speaker B:So I bought two and haven't read any of them.
Speaker B:What does that say about me?
Speaker A:Oh, it's so easily done though, isn't it?
Speaker A:Like, I think all our TBRs are getting complete.
Speaker A:Like, even just listening to this podcast, I've added about five things to my tbr.
Speaker B:So I've done a warning on the the trailer for this one, actually, because it was one of the comments from the last season.
Speaker B:People like, it's really dangerous.
Speaker A:And, you know, I meant to ask you, actually.
Speaker A:Obviously, as a bookstagrammer, you read an incredible amount.
Speaker A:Do you have any tips on how to read more?
Speaker A:Because I think of myself as quite a slow reader.
Speaker A:And then when I see the amount that people read and how quickly they read, I'm like, they must have you got any tips or secrets?
Speaker B:I think where it's become what I do.
Speaker B:I've prioritized more time.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To give it.
Speaker B:I don't really watch a lot of TV at all.
Speaker B:If the kids are watching TV or a movie, I will be sitting and reading.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I think I've just.
Speaker B:I think it is just that I have.
Speaker B:When I.
Speaker B: k at when I started Instagram: Speaker B:So I. I am prioritizing it.
Speaker B:I listen to one audiobook I a month now as well.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker B:And I know there are people.
Speaker B:I do listen to it on a slightly faster setting.
Speaker B:I know there are people who listen to it on like, you know, almost double setting when they sound like chipmunks.
Speaker B:I can't do that.
Speaker A:I did not know this.
Speaker A:I did not know this was a thing.
Speaker B:No, but it's actually.
Speaker B:I mean, I will.
Speaker B:If I listen to it on an ordinary speed, like, I zone out and I'm like, oh, I'm not listening.
Speaker B:But if you sort of put it up to like 1.4 or something.
Speaker B:But I will read it.
Speaker B:Like, I will only do audiobooks if I've actually got the physical copy as well.
Speaker B:So sometimes I'll sit down and read it while I'm listening, and then as I go off to do housework, I can put the book down and sort of carry on.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Is that random?
Speaker A:No, no.
Speaker A:I think that's really interesting because then you've got the physical.
Speaker A:You can sort of.
Speaker A:If there's something you're not clear on or you want to go back and quote it, you've got it there and you're not trying to kind of rewind through the audiobook to find it.
Speaker B:I'm also.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm a lot older than you, but we used to have, like, on cassette, like the books, and you'd, like, have a copy, and then when you were supposed to turn the page.
Speaker A:It'd be like, yes, me and my brother had a set of cassette tapes.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was this big folder of yellow cassette tapes.
Speaker A:It was fairy stories and it would go like, brrrring.
Speaker A:And then you'd know to turn the page in the book.
Speaker A:So I remember that, yeah.
Speaker A:Oh my goodness.
Speaker A:But yeah, I've always wondered because I sort of think to myself, there must be a hack to this that like, I sort of.
Speaker A:I mean, obviously when I'm editing, I cannot read.
Speaker A:So there's a chunk of time in my year where I just.
Speaker A:I'm so technically minded when I'm going through the editing that I.
Speaker A:If I do try to read, I just end up thinking, well, that word should have gone here and this could have been cut.
Speaker A:And you end up just dissecting it and losing all the joy.
Speaker A:So there are sort of times when it's difficult for me to read.
Speaker A:But yeah, it's something I worry about though.
Speaker B:I mean, quite often, because sometimes I'll post something and people like, oh, I've only read three books this year and reading is not a competitive sport.
Speaker B:It doesn't matter if you read one book and it takes you a whole year to read.
Speaker B:It doesn't matter so long as you enjoy sitting down, picking up or listening to it, or however you do it.
Speaker B:I think that's like, you know, I think, you know, there are people who read an awful lot more than I do as well.
Speaker B:But, you know, and I used to find that when the kids were at school when they were learning to read and they had like the levels and they're like, oh, you're going up.
Speaker B:And I was like, oh, I don't really like the going up a level of reading.
Speaker B:It's making it like, I guess it.
Speaker B:So if you follow their progress.
Speaker B:But I was like, you know, you could see them because I have twins.
Speaker B:One would come home, like, I've got up a level.
Speaker A:Yes, it becomes quite competitive then, doesn't it?
Speaker A:Because I look at Bookstagram and, you know, people are reading 30 books a month and I'm like, like, I just.
Speaker A:I sort of feel like completely overwhelmed by the idea of that.
Speaker A:And I. I've started putting on.
Speaker A:On Netflix, they've got like a crackling fireplace video.
Speaker A:I've started putting that on while I read.
Speaker A:Try to like, get me sort of set into the zone, which has really helped.
Speaker A:And there's a babbling brook on YouTube that I sometimes have.
Speaker A:So it depends on the weather.
Speaker A:If it's too hot for a fireplace, I'll put the Babbling Brook on.
Speaker B:Well, we are coming up to cosy reading season, aren't we?
Speaker B:Like, when the.
Speaker B:September.
Speaker B:October.
Speaker B:There's nothing better, is there?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:So good.
Speaker A:Sorry, I totally sidetracked that.
Speaker B:Let's go back onto book number four.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So my fourth book is Homegoing by Yaa Gyasi.
Speaker A:And this was a book that I read that hasn't been so strongly linked to my writing journey, except to say that I was just at the point of getting rejections for Lenny and Margot when I was reading this book.
Speaker A:And it really reminded me of why I absolutely love reading and why I absolutely love writing.
Speaker A:So it's a book about two half sisters, Effia and Essie, and all of their descendants that follow them.
Speaker A:So Effia marries a British governor and Essie is taken to North America as a slave, and we follow their descendant lines.
Speaker A:And I don't want to give any spoilers, but the way that this book ends is such a good ending that I kind of wanted to stand up and applaud.
Speaker A:Like, it was so good.
Speaker A:Like, I was just like, the weaving, you know, there's so many generations that are covered in this book.
Speaker A:It's so technical.
Speaker A:I have absolutely no idea how she would have done it without.
Speaker A:Got a spreadsheet maybe, you know, or some kind of flowchart, at least.
Speaker A:Like, there was.
Speaker A:There's so much history and life and family connections in these, in this book.
Speaker A:But the ending is just easily one of the best endings I've ever read.
Speaker A:And it just.
Speaker A:You just want to, like, just stand up and clap.
Speaker A:Like, it's so good.
Speaker A:And I think it's so different from Lenny and Margot and very different from the kind of genre that I write.
Speaker A:And I think that's really good sometimes to read books that are not what you're writing because it gives you that nice sort of mental break.
Speaker A:And it just reminded me of, like, oh, there's so much joy in reading.
Speaker A:There's so much joy in writing.
Speaker A:And it kind of gave me that sort of like, yes, the rejections are coming in now, but, like, look at.
Speaker A:I mean, obviously I could never write anything as good as this, but I was just like, look at this.
Speaker A:Like, look at what she's done.
Speaker A:It's just, yeah, incredible.
Speaker B:Well, I haven't read it, but you have written two amazing books, so stop.
Speaker A:You are predicted.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker B:That's so funny.
Speaker B:I'm laughing as you're saying this, because the last episode I recorded, I think it was on the last book.
Speaker B:The author who was talking about this book explained it so well that I was like, it was on my tbr.
Speaker B:I went and picked it up straight away and I think you've actually convinced me to go and pick it up straight away.
Speaker A:Amazing.
Speaker B:I love a cracking ending.
Speaker B:There's nothing worse.
Speaker B:When you get to an end of a book, you're like, oh, yes.
Speaker A:When it just kind of stops.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Or it's just like, I don't mind an open end and I don't mind being left sort of thinking, you know, where are they?
Speaker B:What's happening?
Speaker B:I actually quite like that if it's done well, but if you get to it or if it wraps up really quickly, it's like, oh, they all lived happy.
Speaker B:I can't bear that same.
Speaker A:And I let.
Speaker A:I just love endings.
Speaker A:Like whenever I'm writing, like, I always every.
Speaker A:Well, the two books I've written so far, the first line has been the first line.
Speaker A:So, like, the first thing I've written has actually been.
Speaker A:And I always know with that first page how it's going to end.
Speaker A:And I never know how we're going to get there.
Speaker A:But with Lenny and Margot, I surprised myself.
Speaker A:I didn't think the book was going to end for another few chapters and then suddenly I found myself just writing it and I was.
Speaker A:Made myself cry because I was like, I wasn't ready.
Speaker A:And then I thought, oh, but this has to happen when you're not ready because that's how life is.
Speaker A:You can't be ready for this.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, beginnings and endings.
Speaker A:I used to, when I was younger, I've stopped doing this now, but I used to read the first line and the last line of a book when I picked it up in a bookshelf, which I know is very naughty, but I just.
Speaker A:First and last lines are my favourite part of any book anytime.
Speaker A:I just love them.
Speaker A:Sometimes I feel like I could just read 80 books, just the first page, just to be like first and last pages.
Speaker B:Well, it is.
Speaker B:It's that sort of excitement of starting a new book and like, where are you going to go?
Speaker B:And I think if you can pick up a book and sort of instantly feel like you want to carry on, it's just such a magical experience, isn't it?
Speaker B:Like, you know, sometimes you do and actually some, you know, some of them end up being fabulous reads as well.
Speaker B:But some books you almost have to work a little bit to get into.
Speaker B:But I love it when you just fall in and just sort of drawn away.
Speaker B:It is the best feeling.
Speaker B:Oh, dear.
Speaker B:Let's go curl up with a good book, but we can't.
Speaker B:We've got one more book to talk about.
Speaker A:We do.
Speaker B:What is your last choice, Marianne?
Speaker A:So this is a non fiction choice.
Speaker A:Is this your first non fiction book?
Speaker B:I think it might be.
Speaker B:I'll have to go back and check.
Speaker B:I should have checked that before.
Speaker A:Very exciting.
Speaker A:So a bit of a rogue choice, but I will explain why I chose it.
Speaker A:So the book is called Exploring the Language of Poems, Plays and Prose by Mickshaw.
Speaker A:And so Mickshaw was one of the lecturers when I was at Lancaster University.
Speaker A:And this book, more than any book I've ever read, taught me how to write.
Speaker A:And it's not set up to do that, so it's not sold as a creative writing guide or companion or how to write a novel or anything like that.
Speaker A:So it comes from stylistics, which is a branch of linguistics which is primarily concerned with understanding how writers create effects in our brains.
Speaker A:So how does this character, how does this writer create language in a way, use language in a way that we are thinking this or feeling this and how is the character made this way and what have they done?
Speaker A:And I just devoured that kind of thing.
Speaker A:And it is a tricky read because it is, you know, it's university level.
Speaker A:And I remember reading it because it's on my book list just before I started and I remember being like, I understand none of this.
Speaker A:What am I doing?
Speaker A:I'm going to get to university and not understand a single word of what they're saying.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:But your brain sort of adapts to that academic way of writing and eventually you do kind of get to the point where you understand it.
Speaker A:And so there's just so much in here that taught me how to write.
Speaker A:And Mickshaw also, as I did say earlier, is a partial kind of inspiration for Eddie.
Speaker A:So he was, I mean, he's this absolute character.
Speaker A:So interesting.
Speaker A:So quirky, always wears a bow tie and just he was the sort of the lecturer who started my absolute love of linguistics and sort of set me off on the path to do my masters and my PhD and I just couldn't get enough of this.
Speaker A:You know, once you understand the tools that they're using and you take apart, you know, a page of literature, you're like, oh, this is how they're doing that.
Speaker A:And so many writers are obviously doing this subconsciously.
Speaker A:They're not sitting down and thinking, well, I'm going to use deviation and I'm going to create foregrounding and I'm going to use a conceptual metaphor here, like it's all happening at a different level.
Speaker A:But when you sort of analyse writing in that way, for me, I was like, oh, this is how they're doing it.
Speaker A:This is what's happening.
Speaker A:It's like taking apart an engine and being like, oh, this is what that is.
Speaker A:So there's a part of the book where he talks about powerful and powerless speakers.
Speaker A:And so powerful speakers in fictional dialogue, they'll control the topic, they'll interrupt, they'll have the highest word count.
Speaker A:And you can look at, you know, books and you can do a word count and say, well, this, this is why this character is so overbearing, because they're speaking 250 words to this other character's 12 words.
Speaker A:And when I was writing Lenny and her scenes with Father Arthur, I knew that I wanted her to kind of railroad him a little bit.
Speaker A:You know, she's coming in as she's agnostic, she's leaning towards atheism, she wants to know why she's dying.
Speaker A:She can't understand this God that's abandoned her.
Speaker A:And Father Arthur is calm and measured and very, very safe and sound in his belief of God and the afterlife.
Speaker A:And I wanted Lenny to run circles around him.
Speaker A:And so one of the things I kept going back to in my mind and flicking back, because I've still got the book now, was this idea of the powerful speaker.
Speaker A:And so I knew that Lenny was going to be interrupting Arthur.
Speaker A:I knew she was going to be having these long turns.
Speaker A:And that helped me to kind of get.
Speaker A:Get that kind of their sort of almost combative but not quite relationship going.
Speaker A:And I think having those tools has just made me a better writer.
Speaker A:So when I was teaching creative writing, which I did very, very briefly at Loughborough University, one of my students said she hated dialogue.
Speaker A:Absolutely hated it was her least favourite thing to write.
Speaker A:She much preferred description.
Speaker A:And I was kind of saying, once you have these ideas of, like, I'm going to have this character absolutely obliterate this character simply through interruptions and turn taking, it becomes so much more fun because you're kind of playing a game.
Speaker A:You're seeing how is this character, character, you know, how is Arthur going to sort of calmly and not get flustered?
Speaker A:And how is he going to keep coming back to God and keep coming back to his beliefs?
Speaker A:And how is Lenny going to keep trying to wheedle out this kind of like frustration in him?
Speaker A:You know, at times she's trying to push him to get annoyed because she wants that reaction in him.
Speaker A:And so that's why this book will always be really special to me because it gave me this kind of toolkit almost for kind of getting these results that I wanted with writing.
Speaker B:Well, we have to thank this, but because some of the scenes between Lenny and Father Arthur were my absolute favorites.
Speaker B:They are just so beautifully written, and I won't spoil it, but the last words from Father Arthur.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:So good and so.
Speaker B:Oh, amazing.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker A:I just love their relationship.
Speaker A:And it was partially based on a real relationship to.
Speaker A:In my life with a friend of mine who at the time, he was very, very religious.
Speaker A:And I had just spent 18 years at Catholic school and come out confused and questioning.
Speaker A:And we would have these conversations at university.
Speaker A:And I think that was a very early sort of precursor.
Speaker A:I've never told him this, actually.
Speaker A:I should probably tell him.
Speaker B:Well, that's funny you say that, because, yes, you should tell him.
Speaker B:Now.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:I'm wondering.
Speaker B:I'm like, tread carefully here.
Speaker B:Is Mick Short still around?
Speaker B:Yes, he is.
Speaker B:How does he know that these.
Speaker A:Oh, he doesn't, but I should.
Speaker B:Do you really need to.
Speaker B:You need to send him both of your books and a letter and just.
Speaker A:I mean.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's one of those things where, you know, a lot of time when you're into creative writing, you do see these.
Speaker A:These books saying how to write and all of this.
Speaker A:And because it's not marketed that way, you know, it's a very, you know, in academia anyway, then it becomes such a niche that only people really interested in literary linguistics are likely to have heard of it.
Speaker A:But I feel like they could repackage it as how to write a novel and it would just.
Speaker A:It would fly because it.
Speaker A:It's incredible.
Speaker B:Oh, I think you need to write to him.
Speaker B:I've got several sort of teacher friends and family, and I know they always love hearing from, you know, people who they've taught and worked with and what they've gone on.
Speaker B:So I think he needs to.
Speaker B:He needs to know.
Speaker A:Oh, I'll have to see if I can find his email address online.
Speaker B:Okay, so now we've got our final difficult question.
Speaker B:If you could only read one of these books again, Marianne, do you know which one you would pick?
Speaker A:Oh, so cruel.
Speaker A:I've got so much space in my suitcase.
Speaker A:Let me think.
Speaker A:I think it would be.
Speaker A:I think it would be this lullaby.
Speaker A:And partly because I haven't read it for 20 years and I just got it on my Kindle and I'm very excited to abandon my entire life and just start rereading it.
Speaker A:But I think there's something about the feeling of excitement and hope that that book gave me this feeling of like, it's all ahead of me and maybe these scribbled notes all over my bedroom are a part of who.
Speaker A:It's a me thing.
Speaker A:It's not an everybody thing.
Speaker A:I think that's just.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's such a.
Speaker A:Such a lovely feeling.
Speaker A:And just that feeling of, like, being a teenager again in summer and just, like, excitement about what your life is going to be, but nerves about what it's going to be.
Speaker A:I think that's a book that I would happily reread again and again.
Speaker B:Oh, amazing.
Speaker B:Oh, Marianne, it has been wonderful.
Speaker B:I have loved chatting to you.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker B:It's been amazing.
Speaker A:Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker A:It's been so lovely to sort of meet you in person.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Marianne's novel, Eddie Winston is Looking For Love is out now, and it's one that I would highly recommend.
Speaker B:Honestly, you'll feel like you've had a great big hug once you've finished it.
Speaker B:As always, all of the books that we've talked about today are in the show notes with links to buy.
Speaker B:I really hope that you've enjoyed this episode as much as I have.
Speaker B:I'll be back next week chatting to another author about the books that have shaped their life, and I really hope that you'll join me for that episode too.
Speaker B:In the meantime, I'd be so grateful if you could take the time to rate, remember, subscribe, and most importantly, tell.
Speaker A:Your friends about it.
Speaker B:Thanks for listening and see you next week.
