Matson Taylor on Roman Mornings
In this week’s episode I am joined by Matson Taylor to talk about his brilliant new novel, Roman Mornings which is out now (link below) and absolute must read. As always we also chat about the five books that have shaped Matson’s life (and a few others as well)
Matson’s Book Choices:
- The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole by Sue Townsend
- Behind the Scenes at the Museum by Kate Atkinson
- The Diary of A Provincial Lady by E.M. Delafield
- A Room with a View by E.M. Forster
- Tales of the City by Armistead Maupin
Books by Matson Taylor
- Roman Mornings
- The Miseducation of Evie Epwoth
- All About Evie
Other books mentioned
- All In by Billie Jean King
- Heartburn by Nora Ephron
- Selected Stories by Katherine Mansfield
- Bridget Jones's Diary by Helen Fielding
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See you next Tuesday for our next teaser episode which will be followed with the main episode on Thursday.
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Transcript
Welcome back to Best Book Forward.
Speaker A:I'm your host, Helen, and this is the podcast where I talk to authors about the books that have shaped their lives.
Speaker A:You can think of it as like a bookish version of Desert Island Discs.
Speaker A:Today, I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by Matson Taylor.
Speaker A:Now, you may already know Matson from his first two books, both Absolute Mustry Reads, the Miseducation of Evie Epworth and All About Evie.
Speaker A:They were both bestsellers and selected for BBC Radio 2 and Richard and Judy book club picks, and I loved them both.
Speaker A:Matson joins me today to talk about his brilliant new novel, Roman Warnings, which is the most wonderful read.
Speaker A:I'm going to need to insist that you put this one straight onto your summer reading list.
Speaker A:I loved it and I'm sure you will, will too.
Speaker A:So today, Mattsson and I will be chatting all about his writing life, his love of Rome, his inspirations, and of course, the five books that have shaped his life.
Speaker A:So I think that's enough from me.
Speaker A:I think we should dive straight in and hear from Mattson himself.
Speaker A:Matson, welcome.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for inviting me, Helen.
Speaker B:It's going to be really good fun, I can tell already.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We've already had such a good chat before we came on, so I'm really looking forward to this and I'm so excited to talk to you about Roman Warnings.
Speaker A:Matson, I adore this book.
Speaker A:I just said to you, I'm gonna have to stop myself and be like, I love it.
Speaker A:I love it all the way through.
Speaker B:Oh, thank you.
Speaker B:Thank you very much.
Speaker B:You know how to make a writer very happy, I'll tell you.
Speaker A:Oh, you know how to make a reader very happy.
Speaker A:So do you want to start off by giving everyone a glimpse of what it's all about?
Speaker B:Okay, so I suppose, I mean, there's a sentence really that I was thinking all the way through and I actually wrote it down on a post it note and stuck it on my computer.
Speaker B:I was writing and it's two broken people and the universe brings them together to fix each other.
Speaker B:And I really just like this.
Speaker B:Not a romantic idea.
Speaker B:It's just these are two very different people, not romantically involved.
Speaker B:And yeah, the universe, this strange magical thing, somehow brings them together.
Speaker B:It knows they're both broken.
Speaker B:One of them knows they're broken.
Speaker B:The other one, she doesn't know she's broken, the universe does.
Speaker B:And yeah, brings them together.
Speaker B:And hopefully the story is all about healing and finding a family and, and all of those lovely things as well, in Rome.
Speaker B:I really wanted to write a book in Rome, so hopefully the Rome ness of it all shines through.
Speaker A:Everything shines through in this novel, Matson.
Speaker A:It is such a joy to read, honestly.
Speaker A:I could see myself reading it again this summer.
Speaker A:I am obsessed.
Speaker A:So, okay, let's go back to the beginning then and look at where it all came from.
Speaker A:So where was the original idea?
Speaker A:Was it Rome?
Speaker A:Was it a character?
Speaker A:Was it the time period?
Speaker A:What was the initial spark for you?
Speaker B:So I've had.
Speaker B:I've had an idea about a book in Rome for quite a long time because I used to live there, which we'll probably come on to later.
Speaker B:So I've always had like this Rome book and I always thought Rome was a bit magical.
Speaker B:And then a few years ago, just after my second book came out in the paperback, well, my dad died very unexpectedly and I'm an only child.
Speaker B:My mum died years and years and years ago.
Speaker B:So I suddenly find myself an orphan.
Speaker B:And it really hit me, actually.
Speaker B:I was knocked quite hard by it.
Speaker B:And my absolutely wonderful Italian friends just said, right, come over here, we're going to fix you.
Speaker B:So I went, my work was wonderful.
Speaker B:I went over there, I was there for about four weeks and they really just put me back together and sorted me out and did exactly what they needed to do.
Speaker B:And it was whilst I was there that I was thinking, yeah, there's something about.
Speaker B:Obviously like my Italian friends were wonderful and the friendships and this kind of idea of formed family, they all sort of adopted me.
Speaker B:But also just Rome itself is such a healing, magical city.
Speaker B:Something special in the air, I think.
Speaker B:And that's why I thought, right, I want to try and capture this in a book if I can.
Speaker B:And I suppose the characters just sort of came from that.
Speaker B:There's, I suppose everybody when they're writing, there's little bits of me in all those characters, I suppose so, yeah, that's how I wanted to try.
Speaker B:That's how I got into the story, I suppose.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm so sorry, that's your experience.
Speaker A:But you know, Matt, when you said that, I was like, that's you sort of your experience.
Speaker A:That makes sense in the book, some of the themes and just the love that's in this book.
Speaker A:So from your friends and, you know, your experience, I can see where that's come through.
Speaker A:So you've channeled it into something that's just really, really special and beautiful.
Speaker A:So I. I think that's amazing.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was really.
Speaker B:I don't know, almost kind of like therapy, I suppose.
Speaker B:It was my happy space where I could just go off in the book.
Speaker B:Because like I said, I'd lived in Rome years ago for a long time and it's a very special place for me.
Speaker B:So just.
Speaker B:Even when I wasn't writing in Rome, when I was writing my desk here in London, I just closed my eyes and I was there.
Speaker B:And I know it so well.
Speaker B:The sights, the sounds, everything, the people.
Speaker B:And it was just fantastic.
Speaker B:I was getting up with lots of deadlines.
Speaker B:I was getting up about 5 o' clock in the morning to try and write before I go to work.
Speaker B:And it's quite grim when you're doing that.
Speaker B:You'd far rather stay in bed, particularly in the winter.
Speaker B:And after I made myself a cup of tea and dragged myself to the desk and then like right now I'm in Rome and suddenly it was okay again.
Speaker B:It was just wonderful.
Speaker B:And this absolutely amazing sunshine of Rome was just there shining on me when in the dark days of January in London, brightening me up a lot.
Speaker B:It was lovely because I think that that is one of the things that I remember when I first arrived in Rome.
Speaker B:The sky.
Speaker B:You just can't quite believe the sky, the blueness of the sky.
Speaker B:It's just beautiful and almost overwhelming, to be honest.
Speaker B:And it goes on all the way through winter as well.
Speaker B:So my tiny little dinosaur English brain was there in the middle of winter thinking, well, it's getting cold now.
Speaker B:I don't understand, why isn't the sky gray?
Speaker B:And it just stayed blue, blue.
Speaker B:And it just lifts the soul.
Speaker B:And it was wonderful.
Speaker B:I absolutely loved it.
Speaker B:And it was.
Speaker B:Yeah, it surprised me, but I embraced it.
Speaker A:Yeah, I would say.
Speaker A:I know Disney stole the Magic Kingdom, but for me, I think Rome is.
Speaker A:It's just, as you say, just as soon as you.
Speaker A:And we've been there a few times.
Speaker A:I absolutely adore Rome as well.
Speaker A:But, yeah, just.
Speaker A:And that's so lovely that sitting at your desk, you're able to sort of conjure it up and then put it on the page.
Speaker A:So when I was sat here reading it in April, I felt like I was there as well.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay, should we chat about the characters then?
Speaker A:So we have three.
Speaker A:There's lots of amazing characters, but there's three main ones, I guess we have Clemmie, Floss and Monty.
Speaker A:And they are a really incredible, vibrant, mismatched crew that are brought together in these sort of slightly magical circumstances which we'll talk about afterwards.
Speaker A:But yeah, they're just all Amazing.
Speaker A:I wonder who came first and how did you sort of develop?
Speaker A:Because I imagine they had quite loud voices.
Speaker A:They all sort of wanted a story to tell.
Speaker A:So who came first and how did you develop their characters?
Speaker B:Well, who came first?
Speaker B:I think Clemmie and Monty sort of.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I knew I wanted this idea of two people healing each other, two very different people.
Speaker B:And I think there's a bit of me in both of them.
Speaker B:So I wanted to.
Speaker B:I sort of hit a certain age and sort of thought, well, I feel like my initial or my, my youthful idealism was kind of on the wanes a little bit.
Speaker B:And my bounce, my tigger ish bounce, everyone was always used, I've got tiggerish bounce.
Speaker B:And I could feel definitely a bit less bouncy and just a little bit beginning to feel a little bit ground down by life and stuff.
Speaker B:And I thought, oh, that and speaking to friends, that was quite a common thing.
Speaker B:You know, we're all more or less the same age.
Speaker B:And so I thought that's interesting.
Speaker B:I want to kind of like try and capture that and think of a way to, you know, to get out of that rut, to rebounce myself or the character, this character, and try and explore through that and how.
Speaker B:What is it that would bring you joy, for example, and sort of make you sort of, you know, nice and tiggerish again.
Speaker B:So that was.
Speaker B:That's Clemmie.
Speaker B:So that's Clemmie.
Speaker B:And then Monty.
Speaker B:Monty's interesting because I think Monty came about because I wanted to.
Speaker B:Well, as I said earlier, I was watching a documentary about George Michael and in the documentary, Ollie Alexander was talking about when Wham first came out and how George Michael was, you know, closeted, didn't.
Speaker B:Hadn't come out.
Speaker B:And Alexander was saying, oh, and I just don't understand why George didn't come out and say, hey, I'm gay.
Speaker B:And it'd be wonderful.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B: oh my God, you know, like in: Speaker B:Could you imagine if he'd have done that?
Speaker B:The tabloids would have ripped into pieces.
Speaker B:There's just no way could he have done that, you know.
Speaker B:And I can remember growing up in, in the 80s and being at school in the 80s and as a young gay man, boy.
Speaker B:And the last thing you want to do is to like, you know, say that you're gay and you have all these internalized worries and anxieties and fears, but also, you know, dreams, etc.
Speaker B:Etc.
Speaker B:And I thought, God, the, the generation before me in the 70s, it must have been a lot worse.
Speaker B: ing gay had been legalized in: Speaker B:So it was legal, but, but there was still so much to do and I wanted that tension of, yeah, it's legal, but actually still very much frowned upon, socially unacceptable and you know, like both externally and internally as well.
Speaker B:So that's where Monty came from.
Speaker B:Yeah, he sees himself very much.
Speaker B:I can remember vaguely late 70s television.
Speaker B:Some of my first memories on television, when there was a gay man on television, it was either like the figure of fun, shut that door kind of thing, very camp funny, or super creepy and scary and, and, and you know, like that.
Speaker B: ort of, they're just thinking: Speaker B:So I wanted to try and explore that as well.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A: say that and people say it's: Speaker A:You think, how, how did it take that long?
Speaker A:I mean, I know it's still difficult for people in many places as well, but.
Speaker A:Yeah, I guess for Monty as well, being in Rome, in like home of the Catholic church in the 70s as well, it's like not, not an easy place to find himself, but he is even in London.
Speaker B:So, you know, so Monty starts off in London and in the 70s, it would have been very hard indeed.
Speaker B:Yeah, so.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of that would be kind of internal as well.
Speaker B:A lot of the anxiety that he feels internally about these things because it's full, it's an exciting thing, it's full of, you know, there is joy to be had there and all these kind of dreams and that you have that, a happy life.
Speaker B:But at the same time he probably realizes that it's going to be very difficult.
Speaker B:And also because, you know, there are no kind of.
Speaker B:I can remember reading, I think it's Billie Jean King who, who said in her autobiography, if you can't see it, you can't be it or something like that.
Speaker B:And she was talking about there were just no role models, lesbian role models when she was growing up.
Speaker B:So it's very difficult to imagine, you know, she was saying, as a, as a young lesbian, I can't imagine being a middle aged lesbian or a happy lesbian or in A partner lesbian.
Speaker B:Because there just.
Speaker B:There was no representation at all.
Speaker B:And it was exactly the same.
Speaker B:I mean, even for me, sort of in the early 80s, my earliest memories, I suppose, but definitely in the 70s, that the representation either wouldn't have been there or would have been very negative, probably.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, the only person I'm thinking of is, like, Freddie Mercury as well.
Speaker A:I was like.
Speaker A:But, you know, he was sort of, I guess, where people even talk about him being gay or they just talk about his, you know, his amazing.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Lots of women loved him.
Speaker B:And I don't think he actually came out and said he was gay until the day before he died, I think, really.
Speaker B: Which was maybe in: Speaker B:I can't remember.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I can't remember.
Speaker A:I remember being told at school about it, but I can't remember when it was.
Speaker A:Monty is.
Speaker A:He is just a beautiful character.
Speaker A:There's so much about him that I just love, and his whole sort of story progression is just.
Speaker A:Just perfect.
Speaker A:So the other person we have in this family, as well as one of my favorites, is Frank Floss.
Speaker A:So where does she come from?
Speaker A:Because she is an absolute screamer lover.
Speaker B:Well, I know quite a few Flosses, actually.
Speaker B:When I did live in Rome, I knew a Floss, and that was her name, Floss.
Speaker B:And she was a bit like, not quite as like a Floss as in.
Speaker B:Not exactly the same as Floss.
Speaker B:So I kind of embellished quite a lot.
Speaker B:But I loved the name Floss.
Speaker A:It's a great name.
Speaker B:I love this idea of, like, you know, she was very.
Speaker B:She's just one of those people who has lived life to the absolute full.
Speaker B:And you keep getting little hints of these, you know, some fun little hints and tips and, like, these stories that she tells.
Speaker B:And, you know, I love those people with those, like, amazing people who just embrace life and, you know, they.
Speaker B:They're just.
Speaker B:They're sort of like, just shine with joy all the way through.
Speaker B:And yet at the same time, very well.
Speaker B:Very sensitive and caring and wanting to help and nurture and all of those things.
Speaker A:Yeah,.
Speaker B:Floss was actually, to be honest, in the very first draft that I did, because Floss is such a fun character to write.
Speaker B:Floss took over the whole.
Speaker A:That's a very hair, though.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And I thought, well, I've just got to, you know, grind it out, get to the end of the first draft, and then I'll sort her out then I'll have a word with her then.
Speaker B:But she absolutely just took over because she's such a fun character to.
Speaker A:Right, yeah, she is a fun character, as you say.
Speaker A:Something I just love about her is her heart.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:There's some.
Speaker A:Just really, really special moments from her.
Speaker A:I just love her.
Speaker A:I thought she was amazing.
Speaker A:So this little found family, then, of these three amazing characters.
Speaker A:Just talked about your experience for yourself of like, going back to Rome with your friends after losing your dad.
Speaker A:Tell us how it was to write that then.
Speaker A:You said it was quite healing and fun.
Speaker A:But, you know, how important do you think found family is in this story?
Speaker B:Oh, it's so important in this story.
Speaker B:It just runs everything through the book.
Speaker B:Through the whole book.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, there are.
Speaker B:They don't really have any other family and there's a lot of people out there without a family.
Speaker B:And the only way that you're going to get that support are through the found families.
Speaker B:And if it weren't.
Speaker B:If they hadn't.
Speaker B:If these odd groups, this odd group of people hadn't found each other, you know what.
Speaker B:Their lives would be very different.
Speaker B:You know, they bring so much to each other.
Speaker B:And I think it's, you know, it is important, families these days, they're very different to how they were when we used to think about them when we were young.
Speaker B:And there's lots of different kinds of families now.
Speaker B:And I think just this idea of.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Accepting and bringing people in to your family and, you know, I think it's very important.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Having an open mind as to what a family is.
Speaker A:Yeah, it is.
Speaker A:It's that acceptance.
Speaker A:Because they're all so different.
Speaker A:They have very different backgrounds.
Speaker A:They have, you know, the things that they might struggle with and their own pain, but they just come together.
Speaker A:They're just perfect, aren't they?
Speaker A:They're just perfect together.
Speaker B:Well, they are, but then they.
Speaker B:And it's kind of like.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:I've tried it to make it so that the universe sort of puts things into place so that they do just fit together.
Speaker B:And there might be a little bit resistance initially or at times, and.
Speaker B:And it's just, you know, that you can't fight it.
Speaker B:It's just gonna happen.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So let's talk about that, because we were just talking about this.
Speaker A:So as you said, the universe sort of helps.
Speaker A:There is a theme of sort of magical realism, but we're going to call it believable magical realism, because when you read it, you will just totally believe that statues are intervening and sort of helping fate move people into the right place at the right time.
Speaker A:We've got this fabulous cat, Octavian, just.
Speaker A:I did.
Speaker A:I wish I could have my pets talking to me.
Speaker A:I'm not sure what Roddy would say, actually.
Speaker A:He's probably had lots of moans.
Speaker A:But when did you realize you wanted to sort of introduce these elements?
Speaker B:Well, when I lived in Rome, that is, again, one of the strongest feelings.
Speaker B:It's such a magical city.
Speaker B:You walk around and there's these amazing Baroque statues everywhere and just incredible fountains everywhere.
Speaker B:And like I said, you keep seeing the nuns and the monsignores walking around everywhere, and it just doesn't feel real.
Speaker B:It feels like you're.
Speaker B:Feels like quite often that you're in a film set or if you're not in a film set, you're in some weird, surreal fantasy world or something.
Speaker B:And the strangest thing.
Speaker B:The strangest things just happen in Italy.
Speaker B:Anyway, to be honest, after that's maybe for another podcast, but it's, you know, like, it's not quite real real.
Speaker B:It's not really.
Speaker B:It's definitely not kitchen sink drama.
Speaker B:You know, when you're in Rome, you embrace the baroques.
Speaker B:The whole point of Rome is a very baroque city, and they love that theatricality and that element of the absurd perhaps, as well.
Speaker B:And that's what I want to try and capture in the book.
Speaker B:So, yeah, the statues, the talking cat.
Speaker B:The talking cat.
Speaker B:Because my first two books had dogs, because I'm very much a dog person.
Speaker B:And I thought, well, I want to try my hand with a cat.
Speaker B:And I've got lots of friends with cats, and I just.
Speaker B:And I've got a friend with a cat who thinks it's the dog.
Speaker B:And I thought, that's okay.
Speaker B:That's who I want.
Speaker B:I want you.
Speaker B:And I just grew to love this cat.
Speaker B:And I had so much fun with this idea of a talking cat.
Speaker B:And my.
Speaker B:My editor at Simon Schuster at Scribner, Chris, he very much is a cat person.
Speaker B:He's got two or three cats.
Speaker B:And he said, I'm not sure about a talking cat.
Speaker B:I'm really not sure.
Speaker B:And I said, well, let's just don't worry.
Speaker B:Wait until you read it, and then, you know, then.
Speaker B:Then you can decide if you really don't like the talking cat, I'll take the talking cat out.
Speaker B:We can do it.
Speaker B:And because.
Speaker B:And Chris was like, well, I don't do sort of talking animals and things, you know, And I gave him the book.
Speaker B:And when the first draft, when he read it, it's like, oh, my God, I love the talking cat.
Speaker B:Give me more talking cat.
Speaker B:So that was Good.
Speaker B:Glad it's.
Speaker A:The talking cat is brilliant because it's so.
Speaker A:I mean, I used to have two cats, but I had a boy cat called Mr. Tumnus.
Speaker A:And I'm sure those are sort of conversations, but when he sort of saunters into a room, he's very cat.
Speaker A:But it's just brilliant.
Speaker B:It was just observing cats.
Speaker B:I used to go, just sit for hours with these friends who've got cats and just watch what the cats do and see how cat like they are and things.
Speaker B:Because I grew up with dogs, so.
Speaker B:And when you observe them, I mean, they are a bit like these very grand Roman monsignores walking around with the very fine gestures when they're doing things, and the way that they walk and the gait and everything, the way that they think that, you know.
Speaker B:Know they're in charge of everything.
Speaker B:The world is turning for them.
Speaker B:And I thought, oh, I love this in the cat.
Speaker B:Now.
Speaker B:Now I understand why people like cats.
Speaker B:So I've definitely become a cat.
Speaker B:Cato file.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And is.
Speaker B:Is he really speaking?
Speaker B:That's the thing you never.
Speaker B:Hopefully there's a kind of a little element of, oh, I don't know, is that real or not?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But when you sort of start to put it all together, it's so.
Speaker A:Oh, it's so brilliant.
Speaker A:What I loved about it is, like, we were talking about this before.
Speaker A:It's so believable.
Speaker A:It's never jarring.
Speaker A:So, like, you're reading these scenes and the statue might make something sort of happen, and it's so believable.
Speaker A:How difficult was it?
Speaker A:Because, you know, a lot of the story is funny, but it's moving and it's like.
Speaker A:It's such a clever story because it's balanced so well with that.
Speaker A:Like, how did you.
Speaker A:Was it quite difficult to balance those elements?
Speaker A:Because that's.
Speaker A:I guess you could have got carried away with, like, you know, the magic and the cats.
Speaker B:I think I. Yeah, because I. I don't think I'd be very good at writing complete fantasy.
Speaker B:So I think.
Speaker B:I mean, we had a very brief chat about films when we first met and.
Speaker B:And in.
Speaker B:And I mentioned La La Land.
Speaker B:And La La Land is when.
Speaker B:When I went to see La La Land, I just thought, well, yeah, that's exactly what the world is like.
Speaker B:That's what I see every day when I'm walking down the road.
Speaker B:People, you know, like, with bright umbrellas, spinning around, singing and dancing.
Speaker B:That's in my head.
Speaker B:That is the world.
Speaker B:And so I don't think it was too hard, surprisingly easy to do.
Speaker B:And I always wanted to make sure that, you know, those other elements, you know, being grounded and the emotions and the sensitivity and the suffering and the pain, as well as all the joy exercise are there and feel real.
Speaker B:But I just.
Speaker B:I. I like a bit of magical realism in my books as well.
Speaker B:When.
Speaker B:When I'm reading other books, I like it, but I didn't want to go completely, you know, magical realism.
Speaker B:I didn't want it to get pretentious.
Speaker B:That's what I didn't like.
Speaker B:I mean, I don't like anything that's too pretentious.
Speaker B:So I wanted it to be grounded and real and fun, but not silly.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's not.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's fun and it's so.
Speaker A:I mean, I've just.
Speaker A:I am crazy about this book.
Speaker A:I can't wait for people to take it on their summer holidays.
Speaker A:It's just brilliant.
Speaker A:When you're saying about La La Land, I said to you.
Speaker A:I was trying to describe it to somebody, and I was like.
Speaker A:I sort of thought of three movies, so obviously Roman Holiday, which is my favorite fantastic film, and then Chocolat, which, I know these two are French, so it's like, Wrong, Wrong country, but Chocolat with the sort of whispers in the wind that she hears and, like, being sort of called to places and.
Speaker A:And then Emily as well, like the sort of colors of, like.
Speaker A:We were talking about the COVID how amazing the COVID is.
Speaker A:But that's the sort of vibes that I had from.
Speaker B:Yeah, because I think Amelie as well, it's kind of like almost.
Speaker B:I mean, it is definitely magical realism there, but it's kind of like, I don't know, realism squared or something.
Speaker B:It's like so, like all those hyper colors and everything.
Speaker B:It's something there that's, you know, beyond realism.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Magical realism is a good way to describe, I think.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Hopefully there's very broad spectrum of magical realism.
Speaker B:And this is, I hope my book's at the kind of the fun, unpretentious end of magical realism.
Speaker A:Whatever the perfect end is, that's where it is.
Speaker A:So I just think it'd be a great movie, actually.
Speaker A:Be quite hard to sort of translate, I guess, onto screen.
Speaker A:But wouldn't it be brilliant?
Speaker B:Oh, my God, yeah.
Speaker B:That would be wonderful, wouldn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And Rome, like I said, it is.
Speaker B:You do feel like you're in a film just when you're walking around.
Speaker B:So anything set in Rome would be incredible.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Well, fingers crossed.
Speaker B:Fingers crossed.
Speaker B:I Know, there's a producer circling, I've been told, but that makes me think of sharks.
Speaker A:No, that'd be quite.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:They could be so creative with it.
Speaker A:Have you thought about.
Speaker A:Have you ever thought about who would sort of.
Speaker A:If there were any actors who you'd cast, if you could have.
Speaker A:If.
Speaker A:If your Rome could, like, your statues could magic up the perfect cast, who would they be?
Speaker A:God.
Speaker B:Okay, that's a really good question.
Speaker B:I haven't thought about this, but.
Speaker A:I know, sorry.
Speaker A:Put you on the spot.
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't.
Speaker B:Who can I.
Speaker B:God, I don't know, to be honest.
Speaker B:I think often the.
Speaker B:With the first two books, the best.
Speaker B:The best suggestions or the best thoughts of who with the actors always came from readers and they'd always seen these brilliant people and I'm like, oh, my God.
Speaker B:Yeah, now you said that.
Speaker B:That's absolutely right.
Speaker B:So hopefully readers will have some very good suggestions about who can play these people.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Or fingers crossed that it's.
Speaker A:Hope that producer snaps it up because it'd be amazing.
Speaker A:Okay, so the book is beautiful.
Speaker A:It's fun and it's really clever and it's a wonderful read, but it also, as you said, there is some pain and some suffering and we're going to sort of tread carefully for spoilers because I don't want to ruin this for anyone, but you do explore some sort of really difficult moments in history, which you sort of mentioned before about, you know, being gay in the 80s.
Speaker A:But do you want to sort of try and maybe without spoiling, sort of dive a little bit into that.
Speaker A:That for us?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think from quite early on in the book, you understand that Monty is broken and you kind of, you know, as you go along through the book, you kind of begin to understand why he's got these feelings for men that he can't really understand.
Speaker B:He feels quite bad about it.
Speaker B:And then there's a name that keeps being mentioned, this James and you.
Speaker B:So you think, oh, James.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, you think the heartbreak is there.
Speaker B:You know, the relationship.
Speaker B:And I can't really say too much because.
Speaker B:Yes, but.
Speaker B:But the.
Speaker B:You know, there's definitely heartbreak in the book.
Speaker B:There's a song that Bjork sang where it's just like, love comes at you when you're not expecting it or something, or from.
Speaker B:From the.
Speaker B:From somewhere that you're not expecting.
Speaker B:I think heartbreak in this book comes at you from somewhere that you're not expecting, perhaps.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Is all I could say.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's a difficult one.
Speaker A:So I put you on the spot there.
Speaker A:So we were saying before it is.
Speaker A:It's such a.
Speaker A:It's a clever storyline because you.
Speaker A:You sort of keep to sort of guessing, but when you read it and actually when you then go on and read your author's note and sort of realize how important it is as well, we're going to leave that there.
Speaker A:So you have to go and get the book now, everyone.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:So obviously in the book there are some amazing male characters.
Speaker A:I just said to you, some of the women in here.
Speaker A:So Floss and Clemmie, the nuns.
Speaker A:I love the nuns.
Speaker A:They're amazing.
Speaker B:So it was such good fun to write the nuns.
Speaker A:Yeah, they were so fun at the disco.
Speaker A:Nuns at the disco.
Speaker A:I loved it.
Speaker A:Your previous books, you had this amazing character, Evie Epworth as well, who I adored.
Speaker A:How do you sort of capture those voices?
Speaker A:What do you do to sort of step inside to your characters and sort of catch them, make them so believable?
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I mean, just.
Speaker B:Even just growing up.
Speaker B:I mean, all these cliches about Yorkshire being a very matriarchal society are absolutely true.
Speaker B:And I can remember growing up without any brothers or sisters and just constantly being at my mum's side and her friends and various things and even just going away and doing things.
Speaker B:So I was very much always with women, watching women and you know, all the way through life, very, very, very close friends of the women.
Speaker B:So I don't know, I must have somehow just amazing absorbed it.
Speaker B:But a funny story with the first book.
Speaker B:So the first book came out just, I think as lock.
Speaker B:The first lockdown was ending.
Speaker B:And so bookshops had.
Speaker B:Independent bookshops had received the proof of the first book.
Speaker B:And it didn't have a photo of me in it.
Speaker B:It was just, here's the book and my debut novel.
Speaker B:And then I went.
Speaker B:Used to go around and I'd be signing the books in the bookshops and visit him and.
Speaker B:And so often I'd open the door and walk in and they're like, I, oh, you're a man.
Speaker B:And they'd be really surprised if I.
Speaker B:They would actually.
Speaker B:They look quite disappointed, I must say, apologize, I'm really sorry, but.
Speaker B:And they say, oh my God, I can't believe you're a man.
Speaker B:We all thought you must be a woman.
Speaker B:And also as well, I just think women are just more interesting and also, especially with the first couple of books, women, women, I absolutely believe women are more courageous and, and stronger.
Speaker B:You know, I think they're, they're, they're more, they're more interesting to write about for another book.
Speaker B:Well, not my next one, but the one after.
Speaker B:I think I've got this idea of a, Of a very strong female character and hopefully sort of tracing her all the way through the 20th century.
Speaker B:And I just find that would be far more interesting for me to write than a. I don't know.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Men are quite boring most of the time.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Is that just my friends, maybe?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:Good job.
Speaker A:Late.
Speaker A:It's mainly women listening, so that's so interesting.
Speaker A:I was just thinking, because I remember Evie coming out actually, as well.
Speaker A:I think it.
Speaker A: Was it: Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So we were sort of in between lockdowns and it was like a perfect sort of.
Speaker A:It's so interesting, isn't it, because you obviously wrote it before we knew what was coming.
Speaker A:And it came out in sort of perfect time.
Speaker A:And I feel like Roman Mornings again.
Speaker A:We're in a bit of a weird place again.
Speaker A:It's that it's a lovely sort of book to escape into, I think.
Speaker B:I think so, yeah.
Speaker B:I think we're.
Speaker B:I think everybody's feeling very unsettled at the moment and anxious and there's a lot of problems out there and I hope the book is somewhere to disappear into this, this other place.
Speaker B:You're in Rome.
Speaker B:You're in a different time.
Speaker B:You're in, you're in the 70s.
Speaker B: It's: Speaker B:Very troubled times, actually, 76 and 77.
Speaker B: the, Leave these anxieties of: Speaker B:I hope and smile.
Speaker B:I want, in fact, if to go back to Eevee.
Speaker B:I, I, I love it when people smile.
Speaker B:I, I always say I want people to laugh and cry at my books.
Speaker B:If I've made you laugh and cry, I'm really happy.
Speaker B:But with Eevee, when that came out, it was the first time I've been on social media and one of the very first DMS.
Speaker B:I mean, I wasn't used to getting DMs.
Speaker B:I can remember, oh, my God, what are these DM things?
Speaker B:And somebody sent me a dm and I was sat here in my flat and I opened it and read it and somebody said, you know, dear Matson, I hope you don't mind me DMing you?
Speaker B:I just wanted to reach out to you because, you know, I've read Evie, and then it went on to say my.
Speaker B:My sister had died with COVID three months ago.
Speaker B:And reading Evie gave me a reason to smile again.
Speaker B:I can.
Speaker B:I'm filling up now.
Speaker B:And I was just sat on my sofa.
Speaker B:Then I burst into tears and I thought, nobody can ever say anything nicer to me.
Speaker B:That's just the nicest thing.
Speaker B:I want that on my team tombstone.
Speaker B:You know, it's just the best thing ever.
Speaker B:And just to think, oh, if somebody's.
Speaker B:If I can help make someone smile during the day, at some point, I'll take that.
Speaker B:That's just the.
Speaker B:That's the best thing that I can do.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, but what an amazing story.
Speaker A:And I always think it's incredible when people sort of talk about, you know, know, you're saying you're escaping into a book or whatever, but sometimes people are dealing with really, really hard times in their life and actually just to be able to open a book and just escape.
Speaker A:But also, sometimes it does help because, like, you know, you'll see yourself or see somebody reflect and, like, understand what they're going through as well.
Speaker A:So I think that's.
Speaker A:It's amazing.
Speaker A:I just love being a reader.
Speaker B:Me too.
Speaker B:Because I think sometimes, you know, even our thoughts, we process.
Speaker B:We put our thoughts into words sometimes through the words of others.
Speaker B:And you're reading, you think, oh, God, yeah, that's.
Speaker B:You know what?
Speaker B:That's exactly how I do feel, actually.
Speaker B:And I wasn't quite sure and I knew something was wrong.
Speaker B:And that's it.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:It's wonderful when that happens.
Speaker B:It's just such a brilliant thing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you said earlier you lived in Rome, and so for some of this writing, you were in Rome, some of you were here.
Speaker A:Something else I loved in this book is the.
Speaker A:The food gave me some serious hunger pangs.
Speaker B:I had to take quite a lot of food out because in the first draft, when I was really back in London Writing my FL.
Speaker B:Getting up at 5 in the morning, feeling.
Speaker B:Feeling very grumpy, there was a lot of food in there to cheer myself up, because that's a lot.
Speaker B:So Chris, my editor, said, I think we can lose a little bit of the food, don't you?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But there's still a lot of food in there because food is very such a important part of Roman life, of Italian life, and.
Speaker B:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker A:I do.
Speaker A:And also family life as well.
Speaker A:I could bring in, you know, sort of sitting at a table, you know, sort of joking aside, it does make me hungry.
Speaker A:And actually I've.
Speaker A:Since I've been to Rome, since I had to go gluten free, so I was like, oh, with a lot of it.
Speaker A:So I'm like, oh, no.
Speaker A:Anyway, but the way food brings the characters together and there's some really beautiful scenes.
Speaker A:Actually, there's one scene where a character does something so amazing with that food, I won't spoil it, but you know what I mean.
Speaker A:Oh, I'll tell you afterwards.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Then there's characters in the book when they're.
Speaker B:When they're making food for other people.
Speaker B:That's such an important part.
Speaker B:And they're really thinking, what does this.
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:What can.
Speaker B:What can the food do?
Speaker B:And how can the food show my love and my thoughts and.
Speaker B:And all that kind of thing?
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And there's that attention that food can do.
Speaker B:Just the fact.
Speaker B:I mean, it's.
Speaker B:This is gonna sound really sad, but, I mean, I live on my own and so, like, nobody ever makes me a cup of tea.
Speaker B:Tea, because I'm just here on my own.
Speaker B:So it's like, make myself a cup of tea.
Speaker B:And then I go up to sort of visit friends, you know, up in Yorkshire or whatever, where.
Speaker B:And you know, they said, do you want.
Speaker B:Fancy a cup of tea, Matson?
Speaker B:And I'm like, oh, yeah.
Speaker B:And they make a cup of tea.
Speaker B:I'm like, oh, my God, that's so nice.
Speaker B:Have a cup of tea with a biscuit.
Speaker B:And it's just like those little tiny moments like that of thoughtfulness that, you know, I'll take those little victories.
Speaker B:They're very nice that we need to just keep us buoyant to buoy us up through the day, though.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And food's a big part of that.
Speaker A:Like, you say it is anything like, you know, my kids are 13 now, but it is something that I will do.
Speaker A:Like, I mean, I was thinking, I know they've had a long week, so I was like, on Friday I'll plan something special.
Speaker A:And I was like, it's around food because it's such an important thing and it is a really lovely way to show that you care.
Speaker A:So were you, like, constantly deliverooing, like, lovely snacks?
Speaker B:Well, I enjoy.
Speaker B:I really enjoy cooking.
Speaker B:So when.
Speaker B:Particularly when I'm writing.
Speaker B:Because when I'm writing, I'm just at the desk.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:All day.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And my break, I mean, I should go out for a walk, but instead of doing that, I just.
Speaker B:I spend an Hour cooking and I'll make myself something really nice and I'll just sit and watch something half an hour on telly whilst I'm eating and then I'll walk back to my desk and start writing again.
Speaker B:But it's that the cooking that is the.
Speaker B:Is the release and the relax and Yeah, I really enjoy that.
Speaker B:And that's a really super important part of my day when.
Speaker B:When I'm writing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because it takes.
Speaker B:It completely takes me out of the book and away from the desk and I put a bit music on and a bit of a dance around and.
Speaker B:Yeah, it keeps me sane, I think.
Speaker A:Oh, I love that.
Speaker A:I was just thinking about your writing life.
Speaker A:It must be so not.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm sure it's really hard at times and there's probably moments when you're like.
Speaker A:But so lovely that with your books, that you have these amazing characters, you have these beautiful settings and these storylines, like, I mean, even though there are some sort of sad and challenging, it's lovely.
Speaker A:So I've just had a vision of you, like a big bowl of pasta and like glass of wine, then getting back to, like, tapping away.
Speaker B:Pretty much it, to be honest.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:All day.
Speaker B:I mean, my.
Speaker B:My entire days, especially when I'm writing, are just sort of focused around food or ordered around food.
Speaker B:And so as I'm around about 11 o', clock, I'll have my coffee break and I'll make myself a nice coffee.
Speaker B:But of course, the coffee.
Speaker B:The most important part of the coffee break is the biscuits or the cake.
Speaker B:And leading up to.
Speaker B:That's all my brain.
Speaker B:Biscuits, cake, sugar is on its way.
Speaker B:And then as soon as I've done that, it's like, oh, lunch, what should I have for lunch?
Speaker B:And again, I'm sort of writing, but just think, oh, what should I do for lunch?
Speaker B:And then like leading up for supper.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:It's terrible.
Speaker B:Then I just spend.
Speaker B:I waste so much writing time thinking what to eat and I'm desperate to get to the, you know, to the.
Speaker B:To the kitchen so I can start cooking.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it punctuates my day.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're gonna have to have some recipes in the back of the book for people.
Speaker A:If you loved.
Speaker A:If you love this thing.
Speaker B:Well, this was the thing with the first book.
Speaker B:So with the first book, the first book's got three recipes in and they're actually sort of integrated into the text, so into the narrative.
Speaker B:And they weren't in the first draft.
Speaker B:But then again, I spoke to Chris.
Speaker B:He's my Same editor.
Speaker B:And he was like, oh, God, you can tell there's a lot of food in the book.
Speaker B:I can tell you really like food.
Speaker B:Have you ever thought about putting recipes in?
Speaker B:I was like, what?
Speaker B:What do you mean, recipes?
Speaker B:You know, like.
Speaker B:And he gave me Nora Ephron's heartburn to read.
Speaker B:Say, just have a read of this and have a little thing.
Speaker B:And she's a cookery writer and there are some recipes integrated into the narrative and I thought, oh, yeah, I'll give it a go.
Speaker B:But I wanted to do it in Evie's voice because that's a first person voice.
Speaker B:So I wanted to do it in a very specific way.
Speaker B:And I did one and sent it off to him and it's.
Speaker B:Oh, God, yeah, I love this.
Speaker B:This is perfect.
Speaker B:Can you do another any more?
Speaker B:So I did another couple.
Speaker B:So there were actually real recipes integrated into that text.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I love that because I was trying to find.
Speaker A:I've Got All About Evie, which was the second.
Speaker A:That's the second one, isn't it?
Speaker A:And I can't find the first book.
Speaker A: then I think, because it was: Speaker B:So I hope you cheered them up.
Speaker A:I'm sure it did annoyed me.
Speaker A:Now when I've gone to find my set, I'm like, who is that?
Speaker A:And I have no chance of remembering either.
Speaker A:So whoever you are, I hope you've enjoyed it.
Speaker A:So Roman Mornings is out today.
Speaker A:It is an absolute cracking read.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:You've got to have this on your holiday, even if you're not going on holiday.
Speaker A:You need to get this one.
Speaker A:It is just brilliant.
Speaker B:You'll feel like you've gone away on holiday.
Speaker B:Yeah, I wanted.
Speaker B:I want people to read and they think, oh, my God, I've got to book to get to Rome straight away, I need to go.
Speaker A:That's what I felt like.
Speaker A:I was like, I really want to go to Rome now.
Speaker A:Or just like.
Speaker A:But I felt like I'd had that sort of break because you conjure up some so.
Speaker A:Well, I felt like I'd been there.
Speaker B:Well, the.
Speaker B:The piazza where.
Speaker B:Where.
Speaker B:Where most of the action takes place, where they all live.
Speaker B:That's exactly where I lived when I was in Rome.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I lived in Trastevere.
Speaker B:Exactly on that piazza.
Speaker B:So I.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:Everything's just real.
Speaker B:I've closed my eyes and I'm there.
Speaker B:And like, the what, I must say, a funny story.
Speaker B:About.
Speaker B:So Trastevere is the area in the.
Speaker B:In the book.
Speaker B:And when I lived there and I was flying back to.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To Britain one time just to visit family, I was sat behind this like an.
Speaker B:An elderly couple.
Speaker B:And they'd been to Rome for the weekend and they were talking about it, how much they enjoyed it, and they were going, oh, and then I loved that.
Speaker B:That other place, what was it called?
Speaker B:Trastevera.
Speaker B:I love Trastevera.
Speaker B:And so ever since then, I can never think of it as Trastevere.
Speaker B:It's always true.
Speaker B:It's a real place with all the bars and everything like that are real.
Speaker B:All the Little Vic colors and vintage and.
Speaker B:Yeah, all the statues are real.
Speaker B:Everything's just there.
Speaker B:I close my eyes and I'm there.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:Hey, will there be an Italian edition then?
Speaker B:We're waiting to see.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, I desperately hope so, because I'd love to go over there and chat about it in Italian.
Speaker B:That would be great.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, that'd be amazing.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'd love that.
Speaker B:I'd absolutely love that.
Speaker A:Right, so we need a producer and we need an Italian editor.
Speaker A:We need to make this happen now, please.
Speaker B:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, well, fingers crossed for you.
Speaker A:Okay, so we're going to talk about the five books that you've picked then.
Speaker A:But just before we do, just to remind listeners, they'll all be linked in the show notes with links to buyers.
Speaker A:That'd be nice and easy to find.
Speaker A:So how did you find picking your five mats?
Speaker A:And was it easy for you?
Speaker B:No, really hard.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:I. Fucking around for ages and I kept cutting things out and coming back again.
Speaker B:And I really.
Speaker B:I mean, I don't have any children, but it must be like trying to find your favorite child and the ones that aren't Featured on the 5.
Speaker B:I feel.
Speaker B:I mean, I, you know, I.
Speaker B:In.
Speaker B:In heaven or wherever, if I ever bump into Catherine Mansfield, I'll never be able to show my face again because I love Catherine Mansfield and I've carried her through all the way through life, and she's not on my list, and I feel terrible.
Speaker B:I'm so sorry, Catherine.
Speaker A:Does this make it better or worse if I let you have an honorary mention of her?
Speaker B:Well, yes, if I could have an honorary mention for Catherine Mansfield and her absolutely amazing short stories.
Speaker B:And she was just one of the best, best writers that I've ever read.
Speaker B:Written and read.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Even.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And her sentences are just things of beauty.
Speaker B:And there's a real sort of humor in There as well.
Speaker B:And sensitivity.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So she is wonderful, but unfortunately didn't make it onto my list of five.
Speaker B:I feel terrible.
Speaker A:Well, because I loved it so much, I'm going to let you have an honorary mention.
Speaker A:Just don't tell the other authors I let you have that.
Speaker A:So we'll sneak that one in.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Well, let's hear then about your first one then.
Speaker A:What was your first book choice?
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker B:So let's have a think which is the best one.
Speaker B:Okay, I think my first one then is going to be.
Speaker B:Here we go.
Speaker B:The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole.
Speaker B:And this is so important to me because being being an only child, I spent a lot of time reading when I was very little.
Speaker B:And then when I kind of hit, I don't know, like 10, 11, I discovered computer games and Nintendo's and I, you know, rugby and playing all kinds of sport and being out all the time.
Speaker B:And Mike just stopped reading, to be honest.
Speaker B:And it must have been, I don't know, when I was like 13 or 14, something like that.
Speaker B:And it was my friend Roman, his got a friend called Roman and his sister knew that I used to be a bit booky, you know, and she said, have you ever read this book?
Speaker B:And I was like, what a diary?
Speaker B:I don't read a diary.
Speaker B:Said, I think you might like it, it's quite good fun.
Speaker B:And so she gave it to me and I felt like I had to read it because, you know, like his big sister had lent it to me.
Speaker B:Oh my God, I loved it.
Speaker B:I just couldn't believe how fantastic it was.
Speaker B:So I've got to thank Sue Townsend and Adrian Mole for getting me back into reading because from that point I just never stopped.
Speaker B:You know, I did English literature at university, just constantly reading.
Speaker B:And it absolutely is because of.
Speaker B:Of Marcia and Sue Towns and an agent Mole.
Speaker A:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker A:And it shows, doesn't it?
Speaker A:You've like, see my son, I've got twins, my daughter's a massive reader.
Speaker A:My son hasn't quite got there yet, but I'm like, I'm still convinced he just needs to find the book that speaks to him.
Speaker A:And then maybe he won't be a voracious reader, but I think once he realizes there's great stories, I love that.
Speaker A:I don't remember reading Adrian Mole, but I remember watching the TV series.
Speaker A:Do you remember the TV series?
Speaker A:And the song like was like profoundly in love with Pandora.
Speaker B:Well, you know, it's interesting because I as.
Speaker B:And then as I've sort of, you know, gone through life I realized she's.
Speaker B:Sue Townsend wrote, you know, other.
Speaker B:Other books, the cappuccino years and the prostate years.
Speaker B:And as I read.
Speaker B:Read those as an adult, and Adrian's an adult, you realize how clever Sue Townsend is because it's just full of social commentary and very clever, witty observations of, you know, society and new labor and political life and pretentious cooking and all kinds of things like that.
Speaker B:And you.
Speaker B:Which.
Speaker B:And then when you go back and read Adrian Mole as an adult, you realize all that's there as well.
Speaker B:So she's absolutely critiquing what's going on in the 80s of society and political life, etcetera, which, of course, you don't pick up on when you're 12, 13.
Speaker B:It's just fun.
Speaker A:And how exciting is it about the new adaptation?
Speaker A:David Nichols on board.
Speaker A:I can't wait.
Speaker A:I think he's perfect for it as well, to do the writing for it.
Speaker B:So amazing.
Speaker B:I really can't wait for it.
Speaker B:And I just hope that it brings a whole new generation of readers to Adrian Mole, because once you start with that first book, you'll just want to read all five of them, I think.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:Five?
Speaker B:There's definitely.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think four or five.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'll have to check them out.
Speaker B:She died so young.
Speaker B:This is like such the sad thing.
Speaker B:And it's like, oh, you know, it's just terrible.
Speaker B:I just would love her to be writing Adrian Mole books now.
Speaker B:I mean, there's so much.
Speaker B:I mean, she's got so much material.
Speaker B:Where would you even start today to be satirical?
Speaker B:You know, but you could just imagine Adrian today, you know, it's such a.
Speaker B:You know, I know it's quite sad that Mozart died so young, but to be honest, I think I'd, you know, rather have Sue Townsend give her a few more years.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Sorry, mate.
Speaker A:But you think that's so nice, though, that.
Speaker A:I mean, obviously she's not here to see it, but then new readers have been found that it's still, you know, it's been, like, revamped again for tv, so obviously something so special, you think?
Speaker A:I wonder when she sat down to write that first diary, whether she had any clue that it would have so much longevity and just be so well loved as well.
Speaker A:Like, who knows what was there.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But it's just a wonderful, wonderful book and a wonderful series and clever as well as fun, and that's why I really like about it.
Speaker B:And in fact, quite a lot of the books I've chosen.
Speaker B:The fun but also you know, quite hopefully clever and saying something and have that emotional depth as well.
Speaker B:I like that combination.
Speaker A:I think I haven't read anything else on your list, so you're going to have to convince me to do some buying, I think.
Speaker B:So I go for the next one then.
Speaker A:Go on then, hit me with the next one.
Speaker B:So I think the next one.
Speaker B:So then that was, that was sort of 13, 14 year old Matson.
Speaker B:And then I loved reading again, went off to university and, and just read lots of 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th century literature, all of those things.
Speaker B:Old Icelandic, Beowulf, all of those.
Speaker B:And I became an absolute, you know, literature with a capital L. Snob.
Speaker B:And I wouldn't anything that was like, you know, before published, before the Second World War, after the Second World War.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Oh, no, I can't read that.
Speaker B:I've got to read proper liter.
Speaker B:And I finished my degree and I can remember one, the admin manager in my department at university said, oh, look, I've got this book and I think you might like it because it's set in York, because she knew I was kind of York Yorkshire and she gave me this book and it's Kate Atkinson's behind the Scenes at the Museum.
Speaker B:But this is, this is.
Speaker B:I've lost my very, very old copy that she gave me.
Speaker B:And the important thing about the very old copy that she gave me was the first edition.
Speaker B:And it's very chintzy.
Speaker B:So it's super, super chintzy with like a teacup and apparent or something like that.
Speaker B:And she gave it to me.
Speaker B:I was like used to reading Dostoevsky or Wolf or you know, something like.
Speaker B:And I can remember thinking, what on earth does she expect me to read here, this chintzy book?
Speaker B:And I just sort of smiled and said thank you, and then just, you know, put it on, you know, on a big pile of other books.
Speaker B:And I came down to London to do a course just after I graduated.
Speaker B:And I don't know why, but I'd threw this, thrown this in my bag.
Speaker B:Oh, actually, no, I think I'd sort of started reading it just before I came and I read the first sentence, the first line.
Speaker B:I thought, oh my God, this I'm gonna love this book.
Speaker B:Because even just the first line.
Speaker A:What's the first line?
Speaker B:Oh, should I read it to you now?
Speaker B:The first line.
Speaker B:Here we go.
Speaker B: So chapter one,: Speaker B:Conception I exist.
Speaker B:I am conceived to the chimes of midnight on the clock on the mantelpiece in the room across the hall.
Speaker B:And I mean, it just goes on it's even just the first paragraph.
Speaker B:Won't read it all, but the first paragraph is just very funny.
Speaker B:And there's just this amazing voice, this first person voice of somebody who's just been conceived and you're like, oh, my God, how does that even work?
Speaker B:You know, she's not even born yet.
Speaker B:And it was, it just struck me and, and I think this book stayed with me all the way through to when I wrote Evie, because I just loved the idea of that, of the young, kind of innocent narrator who's quite naive in many, many ways, but also at the same time sees things that lots of the adults just don't see.
Speaker B:And I love that.
Speaker B:And this, the strength of the first person voice.
Speaker B:And Kate Atkinson, this is her first book and I mean, it's just brilliant.
Speaker B:It's wonderful.
Speaker B:And you're just swept along by this fantastic character and this book as well as, you know, obviously planting various seeds for the first person narrator and everything.
Speaker B:It got me into reading contemporary fiction.
Speaker B:So I, I, I dropped my horrible pretentious, I'm an English literature graduate, don't you know, sort of idea about I can only read it if it's in Penguin Classics and just started reading lots of contemporary novels, which of course is absolutely what I should, Everybody should be doing a bit of everything, you know, and so I've got Kate Atkinson to thank for, for that.
Speaker B:Definitely.
Speaker A:That's amazing, actually.
Speaker A:I definitely need to go and read that because I've read a few of her books, but I love the sound of the opening chapter paragraph as well.
Speaker B:Brilliant.
Speaker B:It's really funny.
Speaker B:It talks about, like, how she's been because her dad's in a pub in Doncaster or something like that.
Speaker B:It's just really funny.
Speaker A:Yeah, but isn't it amazing?
Speaker A:Like, I mean, it sort of reminds me a little bit of Roman Mournings, of like, you know, fate intervening and putting the right thing.
Speaker A:You're like, so, you know, this admin lady sort of putting that, you know, the fact that you gave it a chance, like opening it up opened a new part of your world.
Speaker A:Incredible.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:If she hadn't have given me that book, there's no way would I have, you know, probably picked it up definitely back then anyway, when it first came out.
Speaker B:And if I hadn't have been, I don't know, if I hadn't read the first line, I just wouldn't have bothered with it because I really, the COVID really did put me off because I'm very superficial like that.
Speaker B:I was.
Speaker B:And yet, so it's like there's so much fate just intervening.
Speaker B:But I think that's true of all life, isn't it?
Speaker B:We can all.
Speaker B:And I think this is.
Speaker B:You're right.
Speaker B:This.
Speaker B:In Roman Mornings, there's so many of those sort of inflection points of fate and so many things.
Speaker B:I mean, I was just thinking back when I was writing the book, so many of those moments that I've had and we've all had where you think, oh, my God, like, if I put that in a book, people just wouldn't believe it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:Because of these.
Speaker B:So, so many weird coincidences.
Speaker B:But then life is just absolutely made up of so many weird coincidences.
Speaker B:So I like the idea.
Speaker B:I mean, in a way, I'm getting very pretentious now after saying I'm not being pretentious, but I like the idea.
Speaker B:Like in Roman Mornings, it's almost like I wanted to foreground the artificiality of writing and like this.
Speaker B:Almost like the story's writing itself with, like, all these, oh, that can't be true, or fate, or.
Speaker B:Or you're kind of highlighting the fact that, like, this is highly unlikely, but yet it's still happening.
Speaker B:So I wanted to try and do something a bit like that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, it's just brilliant.
Speaker A:I. I mean, I love that.
Speaker A:I love sort of thinking of like.
Speaker A:Like, sort of little coincidences and things.
Speaker A:So I love the idea that somebody happened to put a book in your hand at the right time because you think if they'd done it like a year before, you might have just given it to a charity shop because you were so busy studying.
Speaker A:So it's like timing.
Speaker A:And I always think the right book will find you at the right time.
Speaker B:So such a lovely.
Speaker B:Yeah, there's that.
Speaker B:That would be a good book, actually.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The right book will find you at the right time.
Speaker B:That is such a good idea for a book I love.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, when you write it as well, wouldn't that be lovely?
Speaker B:T shirt?
Speaker B:Yeah, when you write it, I will definitely.
Speaker B:We can go into this together.
Speaker B:We can collab.
Speaker A:I can't.
Speaker A:I can't write for toffee, but I just want, like, a little mention in the back of.
Speaker A:Okay, so let's move on to your third book choice, then.
Speaker B:Well, I think I'm going to, because I've been talking about how covers put me off and chintzy covers almost stopped me ever reading Kate Atkinson because I was very stupid.
Speaker B:Well, another book that's like that is this one.
Speaker B:It's the.
Speaker B:The Diary of a provincial lady by E.M. delafield.
Speaker B:Now, I can remember reading this.
Speaker B:So this isn't the chintzy cover, this is another one.
Speaker B:But I can remember it was the title that put me off, actually, this.
Speaker B:And I can remember sort of seeing it and.
Speaker B: s or early: Speaker B:Was it like the country diary of an Edwardian lady and all those things?
Speaker B:And I can remember sort of hearing about this book and seeing it thinking, oh, my God, who on earth is ever going to read a book like that?
Speaker B:Like, I can't think of a book that's worse.
Speaker B:And I was like, really, really against it.
Speaker B:And then I think when I lived in Italy, I used to come back to Britain to work at university in the summer and I was on one of those courses and I was just doing some very glamorous evening thing of ironing my shirts to.
Speaker B:It was the book at bedtime on Radio 4 and I sort of started it halfway through and, you know, switched the radio on rather, and I thought, oh, my God, what's this?
Speaker B:This is fantastic.
Speaker B:And I had to stop ironing and just listen to this fantastic story.
Speaker B:And at the end of the book they were like, oh, and that is tonight's edition of the Diary of a Provincial lady by EM Dell Field.
Speaker B:I was like, what, that really rubbish book?
Speaker B:It can't be that book.
Speaker B:So I went into.
Speaker B:Into Nottingham the next day and.
Speaker B:And looked at the book, saw the book staring at with its horrible cover and just took it off the shelf and started reading, thought, oh, my God, this is the book.
Speaker B:So I bought it.
Speaker B:It's just, this is the book that if I ever have a re.
Speaker B:A dip in reading and I can't read, I go back to this.
Speaker B:This is actually quite thick because this is four books.
Speaker B:She wrote four books.
Speaker B:But the first one, it kind of goes all the way through the 30s, and the last one is set in the early days of the Second World War.
Speaker B:And it's hilarious because it's just.
Speaker B:I think if this had been written by a man, it would be up there with a diary of a nobody, three men in a boat.
Speaker B:An absolute classic of literature.
Speaker B:And because it's written by a man, it's allowed to be funny and clever at the same time.
Speaker B:And we'll have it in the canon.
Speaker B:This book is funnier than those books.
Speaker B:You know, I read those books.
Speaker B:This book is.
Speaker B:But because it's written by.
Speaker B:It's written By a woman.
Speaker B:But it's about a woman.
Speaker B:It's a very domestic setting.
Speaker B:I mean, she's often sort of talking about the.
Speaker B:How the, the cook.
Speaker B:There's lots of very.
Speaker B:Always moaning about the cook and the neighbours and, you know, the vicar's wife and all things like that.
Speaker B:And I'm making it sound very twee, but it's really not tweet at all.
Speaker B:And that there are heartbreaking moments with her husband and it's just brilliant and everyone should read it.
Speaker B:And if it were written by a man, it would be taught at university.
Speaker B:Definitely.
Speaker A:It's so funny you say that because when your list came through, I saw the title, I was like,.
Speaker B:I know,.
Speaker A:But you know what I'm thinking is so interesting.
Speaker A:I got into audiobooks, I think maybe last year, the year before.
Speaker A:I think there's something in sometimes listening to something that you don't think you're going to gel with, if it's got a brilliant narrator or if it's done really well that pulls you into the story.
Speaker A:So like when you're saying you listen to it on the radio, I think like, if I was going to do this, I'd probably go for the audiobook just to sort of see because it pulls you in.
Speaker B:I bet it would be amazing.
Speaker B:I bet it'd be such a good audiobook.
Speaker B:Like I said, it was so good that I had to.
Speaker B:I just stopped ironing.
Speaker B:Not that it's actually quite easy to stop me ironing, frankly.
Speaker B:It's not saying too much like damned with faint praise, isn't it?
Speaker A:But I need somebody to start me ironing.
Speaker B:That'd be wonderful.
Speaker B:Yeah, but it's, it really is funny.
Speaker B:Oh, it's just one of the funniest books.
Speaker B:And even now I must have read it, I don't know, like 30, 40 times and it just makes me laugh and actually another reason why this is important.
Speaker B:Like I said, there's four kind of books in this, in my edition that I've got here and the last one is set in the early days of the Second World War.
Speaker B:What was it?
Speaker B:I can't remember what I was called.
Speaker B:The Phony War.
Speaker B:It was called so before like all the horribleness started.
Speaker B:So they hadn't even invaded Germans, hadn't invaded France, there hadn't been any bombing, etc, etc.
Speaker B:So it's set in London during those days.
Speaker B:And as I was reading it, the.
Speaker B:So the, the lady, the narrator, the diarist is always going about and she'll, she'll want to, she wants to try and get like a gas mask case to match her dress and she wants to get.
Speaker B:She goes shopping and she does this.
Speaker B:And I can't think what.
Speaker B:In the war, they did all those things.
Speaker B:And it's through that that I. I'm my.
Speaker B:When I'm not writing or.
Speaker B:My previous job was as a design historian.
Speaker B:I used to teach at the vna and this is the book that got me into my research field because my.
Speaker B:My sort of specialist area was luxury goods manufacturing during the war, which you don't think it.
Speaker B:Surely there can't be any.
Speaker B:They were too busy building tanks and guns and planes and things.
Speaker B:But no, they were building.
Speaker B:They were manufacturing.
Speaker B:Some people manufacture.
Speaker B:If you knew where to go and you had the money, you could go to Asprey down Bond street, the Queen's Jewellers, the old Queen's Jewellers, and you'd get a beautiful leather gas mask case lined with silk and gold, embossed and enameled.
Speaker B:And through that and reading this book, I discovered this whole world, this research area that got.
Speaker B:Kept me going for about 10 years at the VA of Research.
Speaker A:And that's amazing.
Speaker B:So, yeah, so that's why this is important.
Speaker A:That's a really.
Speaker A:Oh, I love that.
Speaker A:That's so.
Speaker A:What an interesting job as well.
Speaker B:There's, like, so many things.
Speaker B:So like, if you're flicking through the Vogue in the early days of the war, I remember one of the.
Speaker B:One of the.
Speaker B:I was like going through and, you know, people just didn't stop buying if you had the money, of course.
Speaker B:So, like, Bond street kept selling all these amazing luxury things.
Speaker B:And one of the adverts, you see, it's very, very.
Speaker B:Almost like a totally black, dark page.
Speaker B:And you.
Speaker B:Can you see this, you don't know what it is.
Speaker B:It looks like maybe some feathers or something like a little circle.
Speaker B:And if you keep staring at it, you eventually see.
Speaker B:Oh, it's a bit of a profile of someone's face, their eyes and nose.
Speaker B:And you're looking.
Speaker B:And then when you read the text, it's what was.
Speaker B:It's a glow in the dark fascinator.
Speaker B:We don't know which.
Speaker B:You don't imagine is, like, essential wartime attire, do you really?
Speaker B:But in the early days of the war, most of the deaths and injuries were caused by the blackout because, of course, we had to have the blackout even though we weren't really being bombed.
Speaker B:Everything had to be blacked out, so there were no street lights or anything.
Speaker B:So people were knocked over by cars or buses or falling down.
Speaker B:So this glow in the Dark.
Speaker B:They were selling this Glow in the Dark fascinator in the pages of Vogue.
Speaker B:This was a Parisian manufacturer as well.
Speaker B:Those advertising in London Vogue, so that if a bus or a car was coming your way, you wouldn't get knocked down, hopefully.
Speaker B:I mean, it's just incredible.
Speaker B:They were like, what the hell were you thinking about making things like build ships, think about the army, don't bother with these things.
Speaker A:But it's probably that escapism, isn't it?
Speaker A:As well, like, deny reality.
Speaker A:I'm thinking I might get myself a Glow in the Dark fascinator when I walk Roddy in the winter.
Speaker B:Everyone should have one now.
Speaker B:This is the thing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Why do they even exist now?
Speaker A:That's amazing.
Speaker A:Okay, so we're going to move on to where are I book number four, then.
Speaker A:Natson, what did you pick?
Speaker B:I think book number four.
Speaker B:Here we go.
Speaker B:I'll go for book number four.
Speaker B:I'll go for.
Speaker B:Yeah, Room With a View.
Speaker B:EM four.
Speaker B:So now I love EM Forster.
Speaker B:He's just one of my favorite, favorite, favorite writers.
Speaker B:And he obviously writes a lot about Italy.
Speaker B:And A Room With a View is why I ended up in Italy.
Speaker B:I'd read.
Speaker B:I'd read A Room With a View quite a few times actually, beforehand.
Speaker B:And it got to the point where I'd finished university, sort of worked around Nottingham for a year, really not sure what to do.
Speaker B:And I thought, I'm just gonna go and teach English somewhere.
Speaker B:I think that'll be.
Speaker B:You might, you know, just put life on pause for a bit until I think of a better idea what I can do.
Speaker B:And so I did a course and then I was like, okay, where shall I go?
Speaker B:And I thought, oh, I don't really know, to be honest.
Speaker B:And then I thought, oh, Italy sounds quite nice in EM Forster.
Speaker B:I'll just.
Speaker B:I'll go to Italy.
Speaker B:That's what I'll do.
Speaker B:Because I grew to love EM Forster, I think, partly because obviously through the books, but also through his biography.
Speaker B:And I can remember he's one of the.
Speaker B:Maybe being like 16, 17, 18, something like that, doing A levels and reading E.M. forster and reading the biography and thinking, oh, my God, he's a writer and he's gay.
Speaker B:And a bit like we said earlier about Billie Jean King saying, if you can't see it, you can't be it.
Speaker B:I said, oh, my God, there's like a writer who's gay.
Speaker B:I don't know why I was so surprised, but at the time he's like.
Speaker B:He's not like, you know, like that sort of, I don't know, like a kind of figure of fun.
Speaker B:It's not super scary and creepy and horrible.
Speaker B:He's just like this really nice writer who writes really nice books.
Speaker B:And I, you know, read the biographies and then went back to the books and consumed them.
Speaker B:And of course there's his book Maurice as well, which is a gay romance that he published after his death.
Speaker B:And so I, I love the enforced.
Speaker B:And he just made me feel better about myself, I think, and thought, oh yeah, well maybe like you can be a bit bookish and be gay as well, you know.
Speaker B:And so this idea of the enforcer and is he.
Speaker B:He loved Italy and he was always having holidays in Italy as well as writing about Italy.
Speaker B:And he wrote quite another book about Italy, quite a few short stories.
Speaker B:So I thought, yeah, I'm gonna go to Italy like E.M. forster did.
Speaker B:So I used basically the last bit of my money to buy a left hand drive car, threw all my belongings in this car and just drove.
Speaker B:I didn't even have a map.
Speaker B:And like the day before I was going to go there, I had a couple of Italian friends at university and they said, well, have you got like a European road map?
Speaker B:And I think, no, no, but like all roads lead to Rome.
Speaker B:No, no, you just, you just go through France and then down Italy.
Speaker B:Can't be that high hard.
Speaker B:So they bought me.
Speaker B:These Italians were more organized than I was and they went and bought me a map and it was.
Speaker B:All of that was absolutely.
Speaker B:Just through E.M. forster.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh my gosh.
Speaker A:You literally opened the pages and it led you on an escape.
Speaker B:Yeah, and I thought themes and stuff as well though, this idea of.
Speaker B:He writes a lot about an undeveloped heart and this idea of the English abroad and.
Speaker B:Yeah, and I love all of that.
Speaker B:And you know, living in Rome made me feel like sometimes like I was in an E.M. forster book.
Speaker A:So I had a very different experience.
Speaker A:Like, like I hated school, didn't go to.
Speaker A:I went to college, didn't go to university, didn't do.
Speaker A:So I've always been sort of intimidated by some of these books.
Speaker A:This is now being picked by Lucy Steeds, Heidi Swain and Sarah Winman.
Speaker A:So it's sort of creeping up as one of the, the most picked books.
Speaker A:I'm going to have to, to, to read it now, but I just want to.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's really funny.
Speaker B:It's really funny.
Speaker B:Yeah, he's brilliant with understated irony.
Speaker B:So I think as long as you know, because it's, it's sold as a Classic.
Speaker B:So you kind of almost that wanted to put it on a plinth and sort of behave properly when I.
Speaker B:When I pick it up and wear a smart, you know, suit or something.
Speaker B:He's.
Speaker B:It's all about quiet, subtle irony.
Speaker B:And then once you get that, you're like, oh, God, this is hilarious.
Speaker B:This is really good.
Speaker A:See, I think I've sort of had to retrain my brain to sort of come away from thinking like books have to.
Speaker A:You have to be underscoring the right bit and, you know, just sort of studying them rather than just picking up and enjoying it.
Speaker A:Something that was like.
Speaker A:I think last year I read Pride and Prejudice and I was like, oh.
Speaker A:But I had a fear picking up.
Speaker A:So I was like, oh, I've got to understand it and I've got to sort of pull it apart, but actually just pick up and read it and enjoy it.
Speaker A:So I'm gonna have to make this one of my 20, 26 skulls.
Speaker B:I think you do.
Speaker B:And I think you'll.
Speaker B:There's a character called Ms.
Speaker B:Lavish I think you'll like.
Speaker B:Even just the name.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You've got a great name, surely.
Speaker B:Miss Lavish.
Speaker B:Funny book.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker B:You know what?
Speaker B:I think going and doing an English literature degree spoils reading for people.
Speaker A:Do you think?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I know I was probably very controversial and I loved it.
Speaker B:I loved.
Speaker B:It was just like a wonderful time, my university degree.
Speaker B:And I loved reading all the classics and doing all that.
Speaker B:But it did make me read differently, and it took me a while.
Speaker B:Like I said, when I was given the Kate Atkinson, I was like.
Speaker B:My initial reaction was, oh, my God, no, I'm not gonna.
Speaker B:You know, my.
Speaker B:My intellectual literature with a capital L brain is not going to be weighted on that bit of contemporary writing.
Speaker B:Thank you very much.
Speaker B:You know how stupid I was.
Speaker B:What a ridiculous idea.
Speaker B:And it kind of did do that because I was trained.
Speaker B:I mean, we did.
Speaker B:We didn't read anything, you know, like, after the Second World War.
Speaker B:You know, it was even like 20th century, was quite frowned up, to be honest.
Speaker A:It must be like, sorry, sorry.
Speaker A:So you need something between the two of us then.
Speaker A:Like me, who was like, none of that.
Speaker A:I'm gonna be like, I think probably when you were at university, I was like into Bridget Jones and sort of reading all the sort of contemporary fiction and loving it.
Speaker B:But I would.
Speaker B:You did the right thing.
Speaker B:You acted.
Speaker B:Absolutely did.
Speaker B:And, you know, I love Bridget Jones as well.
Speaker B:Yeah, that.
Speaker B:That's another book.
Speaker B:When I was living in Italy and I came back to visit A friend in England.
Speaker B:And she.
Speaker B:She.
Speaker B:Somebody had bought her Bridget Jones.
Speaker B:And I can remember, like, who's this Bridget?
Speaker B:I've never heard of this.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:Is it?
Speaker B:Because you feel you're so be.
Speaker B:Out of it.
Speaker B:This was before the Internet and everything back then.
Speaker B:I was like, what's going on?
Speaker B:I don't understand.
Speaker B:And again, you just read the first few lines.
Speaker B:You're like, I'm gonna love this book.
Speaker A:It's so good, wasn't it?
Speaker A:It was so, so good.
Speaker A:But you say that.
Speaker A:I think, like, we both.
Speaker A:Like when you're saying, like, what you did.
Speaker A:Everyone's path leads them to where they're supposed to be.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I think, you know, mine's very zigzaggy.
Speaker B:I. I'm ex.
Speaker B:I can, you know, if I'm at a dinner party and somebody starts talking about 11th century Icelandic poetry, I can join the conversation.
Speaker B:I can offer something.
Speaker B:So this is.
Speaker B:I feel it's useful for that.
Speaker B:Perhaps.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm not sure.
Speaker A:I could add it all.
Speaker A:Clear the plates at that point, make myself useful.
Speaker A:Okay, let's move on to your final choice, then.
Speaker B:So my final one is.
Speaker B:Here we go.
Speaker B:Amstead, Maupin, Tales of the City.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:And I love this.
Speaker B:I can't even remember when I first read it, to be honest.
Speaker B:But, you know, I've returned to it quite a few times.
Speaker B:What I love about this book is this.
Speaker B:We've talked about formed families.
Speaker B:If I can speak properly and just bring in this group of eccentric people together and they're all living together and they're all a bit mad and it shouldn't work, but it does.
Speaker B:And it's just the eccentricities of them all that it's just like watching some amazing spectacle.
Speaker B:And I love it.
Speaker B:And it's very touching and romantic and emotional as well, but at the same time, again, very funny.
Speaker B:There's some very, very funny set pieces.
Speaker B:And it's that again, it's.
Speaker B:I suppose it's the combination of the two that I really like.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Doing English literature at universities have made me think that books can't be.
Speaker B:They shouldn't be funny because they should be serious and with a capital S. Serious.
Speaker B:And you can actually be serious and say important things and clever things and be.
Speaker B:Be very well written and be funny.
Speaker B:They're not mutually exclusive.
Speaker B:And I think that's.
Speaker B:I wasted quite a few years of my life thinking that, and that was very stupid of me.
Speaker B:But it is fun and clever.
Speaker B: it's like Dickens, but set in: Speaker B: artistic San Francisco in the: Speaker B:It's just brilliant.
Speaker A:Somebody just gave me a copy a few months ago and said you'd love it.
Speaker A:I haven't picked it up yet, so I need to.
Speaker A:To bump it up.
Speaker B:I think if you should bump it up, you already like it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So I know we've got our honorary mention, but we're going to take that out for just this last bit.
Speaker B:Sorry, Catherine.
Speaker A:Well, she got in.
Speaker A:You did well, she got in.
Speaker A:If you could only read one of those books again, which one would it be?
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I think it has to be the E.M. delafield diary of a Principal Lady.
Speaker B:I mean, I almost just.
Speaker B:I could recite the whole book, actually, to be honest.
Speaker B:But it's just.
Speaker B:It's like I feel like, oh, I'm back home again.
Speaker B:No matter how horrible life is or how down I feel or how much horrible stuff is being thrown at me as whatever, how unsettled I'm feeling, how much.
Speaker B:I don't feel like reading this book will make me.
Speaker B:Me smile again and will make me happy.
Speaker B:It will make me think, God, yeah, reading really is brilliant, isn't it?
Speaker A:And it really is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:This is the book.
Speaker B:Well, for me, it just like.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's.
Speaker B:Stop, stop, stop moaning, Matson.
Speaker B:You know, life's not too bad.
Speaker B:I'm a book.
Speaker B:I'm brilliant.
Speaker B:Enjoy me.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:You've done very well.
Speaker A:You've got me to add three books.
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:So three that I was like would be like, I'm not sure.
Speaker A:So you.
Speaker A:You convinced me.
Speaker A:Well done.
Speaker A:No, I just actually need to pick them up.
Speaker B:Finding the time to read them, that's the thing.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:And there's so many.
Speaker A:There are so many books.
Speaker A:I mean, it's such a lovely problem to have, but like, I sometimes do get a little bit like.
Speaker B:You'll absolutely fly through this one.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker B:That is.
Speaker B:I've got the four.
Speaker B:Four edition, four books in one.
Speaker A:I'm going to do the audiobook for that one, I think.
Speaker B:Are you.
Speaker B:You will.
Speaker B:You will.
Speaker B:You know, your house will be.
Speaker B:Will remain uncleaned and your shirts will remain unironed until you finish it.
Speaker A:I'm afraid those are problems we have all the time.
Speaker A:No matter what I'm doing, don't worry about it.
Speaker B:Your children won't eat.
Speaker B:They'll be.
Speaker B:They'll be.
Speaker B:It'll just be, you know, get a Pot Noodle.
Speaker B:I can't move from this.
Speaker B:I've got to listen to the end of this.
Speaker B:It'll be.
Speaker A:They'd be delighted with that.
Speaker A:Is this one here?
Speaker A:Back here.
Speaker A:Here.
Speaker A:Roddy will be the one who, like, why aren't we walking?
Speaker A:Oh, Matson, it has been so wonderful.
Speaker A:I've absolutely loved this.
Speaker A:It's been brilliant.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker B:I've really enjoyed it too, Helen.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:It's been such a lovely way to spend Thursday afternoon.
Speaker A:Lovely.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I was so excited to record this episode because I knew I was just gonna love Matson and that was just such a joy.
Speaker A:I could have spent spent hours talking to him.
Speaker A:I really hope that you've enjoyed it as well.
Speaker A:And most importantly, I hope that you're about to run off and grab a copy of Roman Holidays.
Speaker A:You will not be disappointed.
Speaker A:It is fabulous.
Speaker A:As always.
Speaker A:All of the books that we've talked about today are linked in the show notes with links to buy, so they're nice and easy for you to find.
Speaker A:And I'll be back on Tuesday with our next teaser and on Thursday with our next next author.
Speaker A:So I hope that you will join me for those episodes.
Speaker A:And in the meantime, thank you so much for listening.
Speaker A:Take care and see you soon.
