Matt Cain on One Love and the Stories Behind His Bestselling Novels
In today’s episode my guest is the wonderful Matt Cain., I have been chatting to Matt on Instagram for such a long time so to get to speak to him about his books and the books that he loves was such a treat. We talked about all of Matt’s books but especially about his latest novel
One Love which comes out on 18 January and is an absolutely brilliant read.
We talked about the five books that have shaped Matt’s life and three of them are also favourites of mine.
Matt’s Desert Island Book choices are:
The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe by CS Lewis
Kiss of the Spiderwoman by Manuel Puig
Thomas Hardy: The Time-Torn Man by Claire Tomalin
The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller
Throughout our discussion, we talked about lots of other books and these are all listed below.
Other books mentioned in this episode
The Madonna of Bolton by Matt Cain
The Secret Life of Albert Entwistle by Matt Cain
Heartstopper by Alice Oseman
The Neverending Story by Michael Ende
A Stitch in Time by Kathryn Coltrin
The Stranding by Kate Sawyer
This Family by Kate Sawyer
I hope you have enjoyed this episode as much as I did, I loved chatting to Matt. I would be so grateful if you would take the time to like, subscribe and most importantly tell your friends about it.
Do keep an eye out as there is a bonus episode with Matt coming soon.
In the meantime, for more content from me you can follow me on Instagram or visit my website www.bestbookforward.org
This episode of Best Book Forward was produced by Buckers at Decibelle Creative
Transcript
Welcome to Best Book Forward, the podcast where I talk to authors, publishers and book lovers alike about the books that have shaped their lives.
Speaker A:Think of it as like Desert Island Discs, but the bookish version.
Speaker A:Today I'm delighted to be joined by Matt Kane, author of the Madonna of Bolton, the Secret Life of Albert Entwistle and Becoming Ted.
Speaker A:Matt's latest novel, One Love comes out on the 18th of January and it is such a beautiful raw and emot.
Speaker A:I can't wait to talk to Matt more about it.
Speaker A:We'll also of course talk about the five books that have shaped Matt's life.
Speaker A:Matt, welcome and thank you so much for joining me on Best Look Forward today.
Speaker B:Helen, thank you for having me.
Speaker B:It's such a delight to meet you finally after all our contact on social media.
Speaker A:It's so funny, isn't it?
Speaker A:We've been wanting to do this for ages and when I started talking about the podcast I was like, I just really want you to be one of my guests.
Speaker A:So thank you so much.
Speaker A:Very exciting.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:And it does feel like even though it's taken us a while, it does feel like this is the right moment.
Speaker A:It does.
Speaker A:You know, it's funny because I was like, oh, I wish we were talking about because I think the first time we started talking about was Albert and then it was becoming Ted.
Speaker A:But actually I feel like we found the right moment so we have.
Speaker B:Well, also I'm right at the beginning of my promotional period for One Love, so I'm still really excited, excited and interested to hear what people have got to say about it.
Speaker B:Not just readers, although I love reader responses, but kind of expert readers, people who read a lot and analyze books like yourself.
Speaker B:It's fascinating and useful.
Speaker B:Very helpful for me to hear people's responses.
Speaker B:So yeah, it's great to be here.
Speaker A:That's very exciting.
Speaker A:So we're recording this in November and obviously One Love comes out on the 18th of January.
Speaker A:So do you want to start off by telling everyone what your beautiful new novel is all about?
Speaker B:Yes, it is called One Love.
Speaker B:It's about two friends called Danny and Guy.
Speaker B: t at Manchester University in: Speaker B:They're both gay and their time at university is very much a time of self discovery, exploring their sexuality together when they're away from home.
Speaker B:And what happens 20 years later is that they decide to go back to Manchester, Manchester to celebrate their 20th anniversary as friends for Manchester Pride, which is a four day festival over the bank holiday weekend at the end of August.
Speaker B:So they off they go to Manchester.
Speaker B:But what one of them doesn't know, what guy doesn't know, is that Danny, for the entire 20 years, has been madly in love with him and hiding it.
Speaker B:And there've been missed chances and all this.
Speaker B:And basically what happens is as they go back to Manchester, it comes to a head and everything shakes down and unravels, but in ways that neither of them could have expected.
Speaker B:And also, there are plenty of prompts for them to look back over the 20 years of their relationship, shall we call it?
Speaker B:And I really enjoyed.
Speaker B:I've never done dual timeline before.
Speaker B:I've often done flashbacks, but I've never done dual timeline.
Speaker B:And it was great to do that.
Speaker B:And also, it's not chronological, the past tense timeline.
Speaker B:So I'm not wholly chronological, should I say?
Speaker B:And yeah, it's my.
Speaker B:It's the book I'm probably the most proud of of all the books that I've written.
Speaker B:So how did that sum it up in your experience?
Speaker B:Did I nail it?
Speaker B:I've not quite got the patter because this is one of my first interviews.
Speaker A:Well, we were just talking about this before we started recording of how it is a book that you could very easily spoil.
Speaker A:It is a journey, and as you say, there are moments in their lives that they discover together.
Speaker A:It is a book that you say, you know, it's your one that you're most proud of.
Speaker A:When I read it, I felt like I could feel the love that you've put into these two characters.
Speaker A:It's just.
Speaker A:I mean, I was messaging you throughout reading.
Speaker A:It wasn't that I kept on doing voice notes to you, which I don't think I've done with many authors of, like, you know, I'm 50 pages in and I've just got to share my thoughts with you.
Speaker B:Should I tell you what, Helen?
Speaker B:It's really funny because just when you said that about voice notes.
Speaker B:I'm really lucky people, I think, because my books have a lot of heart.
Speaker B:They don't tend to be criticized much.
Speaker B:If somebody doesn't like them, they just keep quiet.
Speaker B:And those who do like them, often because they mean well and they've got all this heart.
Speaker B:People express their positive responses with this book.
Speaker B:It's so weird.
Speaker B:I've literally had book retailers, bloggers, journalists, sending me voice notes in tears telling me how much they loved it.
Speaker B:And it's great for me.
Speaker B:It's great because this is another one that I had to fight for.
Speaker B:It's so weird.
Speaker B:You know, obviously, you know, the story of the Madonna of Bolton, the first book that I wrote that I had to battle through 10 years of rejection to get published.
Speaker B:And I ended up crowdfunding it and breaking the record for the fastest crowdfunded novel with Unbound.
Speaker B:And it went on to do really well.
Speaker B:And that was great.
Speaker B:And that was loosely autobiographical.
Speaker B:This one I started writing after the Madonna of Bolton had come out and done well, and I really believed in it.
Speaker B:And I had other ideas and publishers.
Speaker B:It's not that this one was rejected, but publishers kept saying to me, oh, that idea you've got, Albert Enterson is more commercial.
Speaker B:And that idea, Becoming Ted, which wasn't the original title, actually that idea for what would become Becoming Ted is more now because it's got drag in it.
Speaker B:And what that did was it meant that I actually spent four and a half years on this book, stepping back from it, going back to it.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker B:Much as I was frustrated, I actually think that worked out for the best because it meant I could keep coming back to it with fresh eyes and improving it.
Speaker B:And now that it's coming out and those other books have built up my readership, I'm hoping this one really punches through.
Speaker A:That's really interesting you say that.
Speaker A:I mean, there is a very different feel to it from your other books from like Albert and Ted and Madonna of Bolton as well.
Speaker A:This one feels really raw and emotional.
Speaker A:Obviously it's mixed with like the sort of, you know, fun and humor as well.
Speaker B:Well, it's interesting for me that you say that because I think it's the most.
Speaker B:I think it's most similar to the Madonna of Bolton of any book, books that I've written.
Speaker B:The other two were a bit lighter and that one had.
Speaker B:It starts off the Madonna Bolton, if anybody's not read that.
Speaker B:It's the story of a working class boy in the north of England growing up in the 80s, has a hard time being gay, latches onto Madonna, the pop icon, as a kind of spirit guide to get him through a difficult time.
Speaker B:And then as he's older, he has to let go of his spirit guide in order to find his own voice as a creative.
Speaker B:And actually that book has got edge and grit.
Speaker B:But it starts off because it's about a young boy and there's all the nostalgia.
Speaker B:It feels very light and fluffy.
Speaker B:And I was quite pleased about that because it meant that I could lure in the reader before I hit them over the head with scenes in sex clubs and saunas and sexual health clinics and.
Speaker B:But actually, I think there is an edge to that one.
Speaker B:And this is probably the closest to it.
Speaker B:And actually I was thinking about this the other day because I've got to do a talk at the Cambridge Union the week after next and I was thinking about through lines, through my books.
Speaker B:And I think if you look at Charlie in the Madonna of Bolton, you look at Danny in this and you look at Ted in Becoming Ted.
Speaker B:That is about a man in his 40s dumped by his husband.
Speaker B:Devastated, he decides he's going to turn his life around.
Speaker B:Now's the time to put what he wants first.
Speaker B:He's going to become a drag queen.
Speaker B:That's his long suppressed dream.
Speaker B:And along the way he kind of discovers himself.
Speaker B:So actually, if you look at those three characters, Charlie, Ted and Danny in One Love, they each feel they're not good enough and they need some.
Speaker B:They look outside themselves for something to make them feel better.
Speaker B:Charlie looks at Madonna and he thinks, she can make me better, she can fix me.
Speaker B:Ted looks at drag, he thinks I'm boring, I'm dull, I'm not interesting or special enough.
Speaker B:When I go on stage as my drag queen alter ego, that's different.
Speaker B:But actually he realizes as, as Danny.
Speaker B:So Danny in this book, he looks outside himself to Guy.
Speaker B:He thinks Guy is everything I'm not.
Speaker B:I'm not attractive, I'm common and working class.
Speaker B:Guy's classy and gorgeous.
Speaker B:He's got an amazing body and everybody fancies him.
Speaker B:And if he could just fall in love with me, everything would be all right.
Speaker B:I'd be better, I'd be good enough.
Speaker B:And what all three of them realize is that actually, deep down, they were good enough in the first place.
Speaker B:They didn't need anything outside them.
Speaker B:It was always there inside them all along.
Speaker B:So, yes, they are very different in some ways, but there is this similarity.
Speaker A:I think, and it's a.
Speaker A:Probably something that's very relatable to everyone, isn't it?
Speaker A:We all have those moments of insecurity and sort of, you know, wondering what we could do or change in our lives that would make us feel better or do better.
Speaker A:So I think, yeah, but they're all, all of them are just so.
Speaker A:They're so believable.
Speaker A:And I feel for them all.
Speaker A:I know when I started reading Becoming Ted in the first few pages, I was like, oh, Ted.
Speaker A:And it's like, you just do such a brilliant job of making your characters so believable and just making your reader care for them, which I think is so special.
Speaker A:And actually with Albert, I still.
Speaker A:Because Albert was the first book of yours I read and I still Think about him like he still pops into my head.
Speaker B:I'll tell you what, Helen, that's lovely to hear.
Speaker B:And thank you very much for that, I think.
Speaker B:I mean, nobody can rate how good they are as a writer, but if anybody would say to me, what's the one thing, you know, you can nail?
Speaker B:And with me, it is that feeling of not being good enough and.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker B:Feeling like, you know, low self esteem.
Speaker B:And in my case, it.
Speaker B:And in the case of most of my characters, it comes from growing up gay in a world that told us it was wrong, whether or not we were bullied for it.
Speaker B:We absorbed the message from the media that we weren't good enough, we were defective, you know, we were dangerous, deviants, perverts, all that.
Speaker B:And that actually really affects the way you think about yourself and the way you treat yourself.
Speaker B:And I think lots of people feel that for lots of different reasons, whether they are.
Speaker B:I mean, people are bullied at school for all kinds of things.
Speaker B:You know, women who are sexually expressive or people who are neurodiverse, or people who are overweight, or you're just a new kid and you don't fit in because nobody knows you.
Speaker B:I mean, so many things make people feel not good enough.
Speaker B:And actually, most of my characters don't just have the gay thing.
Speaker B:They often have other things that feed in.
Speaker B:So Ted, without wanting to give too much away and becoming Ted, he knows he wasn't planned as a child.
Speaker B:And he's also expected to take over the family business, which he doesn't want to do because he's not remotely interested in it.
Speaker B:And Danny, for example, is common.
Speaker B:He's got a strong northern accent, he's from a poor background.
Speaker B:And that also feeds in.
Speaker B:But that's, I think, you know, it can be a universal.
Speaker B:Because people feel that for all different kinds of reasons.
Speaker B:But that's.
Speaker B:I think, much as the experiences that I went through that made me be able to feel that and channel it into my writing were very painful to go through.
Speaker B:I can see that if they hadn't happened, I probably wouldn't have anything to write about.
Speaker A:I don't know how to answer that now, because I'm like, oh, a world without your books would be terrible.
Speaker A:But obviously, I don't want to say I'm glad you suffered for my enjoyment.
Speaker B:I know, but these things do happen for a reason, don't they?
Speaker A:I do.
Speaker A:I believe that, yeah.
Speaker A:And I think.
Speaker A:And it.
Speaker A:It's so brilliant that you share your experiences because there will be people who are still going through that now who will be able to sort of draw comfort from it and, you know, find their confidence and self esteem as well.
Speaker A:So I think it's, it's brilliant that you'll share your stories the way you.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's actually I really want.
Speaker B:Sometimes when books are described as uplifting, they sound a bit kind of lightweight.
Speaker B:And I actually want my books to make readers feel uplifted, but in a quite profound way.
Speaker B:I want it to make them make life decisions or changes that will allow them to be their best possible self.
Speaker B:And, you know, it's all about self realization, self actualization.
Speaker B:And my books can play a small part in somebody's journey towards that then.
Speaker B:I'm really proud of that.
Speaker A:Yeah, you should be, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I was just thinking the one thing that popped into my head then was in becoming Ted, I can't.
Speaker A:I wish I had the line near me now to write.
Speaker A:But I remember I used the quote in my review and it's like, what does he say?
Speaker A:It's like if for, for one day I'm going to allow myself to be myself.
Speaker A:There's a brilliant line where just comes back because he has a great choreographer, the dance teacher.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, she was one of the last characters.
Speaker B:Yes, it was really funny, that one.
Speaker B:So with Albert Entwistle and One Love, I started writing them out of contract.
Speaker B:As I said about Madonna.
Speaker B:I submitted it, didn't get a deal.
Speaker B:So I crowdfunded it with Albert Entwistle.
Speaker B:I started writing it and then submitted it and got a deal and they gave me a deal for another book, which was Ted.
Speaker B:And actually what's brilliant with when you write under contract is what you don't do is write the whole thing down to the eighth draft and then find out that the editor wants a radical change that means a huge restructuring.
Speaker B:And you know, it's really difficult to unpick and rework what actually happens.
Speaker B:Well, the way I work is I plan everything.
Speaker B:So I sent a scene by scene synopsis to my editor for TED and to not give anything away, there are a series of letters that arrive for Ted at his work.
Speaker B:Anonymous letters making certain claims.
Speaker B:And what my editor said was, you need to spread the suspicion onto people.
Speaker B:You need more women who it could be sending those letters.
Speaker B:And therefore Shelley Topper is she called, I can't even remember because she was the last Shelley Topper, I think, who's the dance teacher and Marina, who is Oscar's friend who lives in the next door caravan, were two of the last characters that I wove in, actually, Marina, funnily enough, I need to find out what this dance teacher's called.
Speaker B:I'm pretty sure she's called Shelley Topper.
Speaker B:But can I just say, Helen, I'm telling you all this very honestly because I'm in the middle of writing another book and in order to do it, you have to just completely immerse yourself in the new fictional world.
Speaker B:And I've said no to everything else until I finish this first draft at Christmas.
Speaker B:But I didn't want to say no to you because you've been brilliant and so supportive.
Speaker B:Shelley Topper.
Speaker B:I've just looked it up in my Word document.
Speaker A:That's so funny, because she feels like she was always there.
Speaker A:I'm really surprised.
Speaker A:I think if I had read that, I would never have guessed that she wasn't always in the plan because she's.
Speaker B:Well, interesting.
Speaker B:You should say that.
Speaker B:A very good editor won't shoehorn things in and they'll make suggestions that you can respond to with things that probably should have been in there anyway in the first place, if you see what I mean.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It wasn't me thinking, oh, how can I shove in that what's needed?
Speaker B:She probably should have been there because I needed to show Ted gradually going on a journey towards self discovery with all the different things that are in drag, singing, dancing, dressing up and what he used to love about them as a child and what he'd been suppressing.
Speaker B:And I needed to see him dancing and loving dancing and actually Marina with Oscar.
Speaker B:So Oscar's a loner and cut off from everybody.
Speaker B:Oscar is a Polish painter and decorator who Ted meets when he's getting over his husband and they may or may not decide to have a second time around.
Speaker B:Love affair, second chance, should I say second act?
Speaker B:And he was a loner, and I basically had one too many scenes with him on his own thinking about things.
Speaker B:And Marina always lived in the caravan next door, but my editor said his internal monologue isn't as successful as Ted's.
Speaker B:Could he have a confidant?
Speaker B:And I was really wary about that because he's meant to be cut off and shy and where his barriers are up.
Speaker B:But he resists becoming friends with Marina and does gradually.
Speaker B:So she and Shelley Topper, the dance teacher, were late additions, but they probably should have been there in the first place, which is the work of a good editor.
Speaker B:Jen Doyle at Headline naeditor.
Speaker A:Well, thank you, Jen, and thank you.
Speaker A:Obviously.
Speaker A:Should we go back and talk about Guy and Danny?
Speaker A:A little bit, yes.
Speaker B:Sorry, I'm Doyle.
Speaker A:Well, no, I would happily go into all of your novels and chat more about them, but we should give one love, lots of love, shouldn't we?
Speaker A:So I know you've talked before about the inspiration behind your characters and I know your husband Harry is a huge inspiration.
Speaker A:I was wondering where Guy and Danny inspired by anyone you know?
Speaker A:And also did you find one or other of them easier to write?
Speaker B:Oh, flipping that.
Speaker B:Are you going straight in with the probing questions?
Speaker B:That's a very good question.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker B:I think the best, most successful characters when you put a lot of yourself into them.
Speaker B:Danny is another version of me.
Speaker B:I mean, a lot of what happens in his life hasn't happened to me, but everything he feels has happened to me.
Speaker B:And I probably shouldn't say this if my husband Harry is listening, but I have been in love with my best friend.
Speaker B:And I think in my case it was about feeling I wasn't good enough and looking at somebody else and thinking they were so much better than me and they were so perfect.
Speaker B:But it was almost a stick to beat me with and to beat myself with.
Speaker B:And yeah, I think I looked at Guy and I thought, he needs to be one of those gays that those quirky, intelligent, camp, slightly different gays like me look at and think, oh, my God, they're like so perfect.
Speaker B:And just, you know, he.
Speaker B:Everybody thinks he's straight, so he's not camp or visibly presenting and therefore isn't bullied for it.
Speaker B:He's drop dead gorgeous.
Speaker B:He's no money where is.
Speaker B:But I wanted to flip it and show that Danny's the one who actually has acceptance at home from his mum.
Speaker B:And Guy has a nightmare mum and dad, who were literally my favorite characters to write.
Speaker B:Silly co mum Cynthia and his dad.
Speaker B:Good Lord, she always says, you know.
Speaker B:And actually, yeah, I wanted to show that those who may seem to have the perfect lives on the surface don't necessarily.
Speaker B:But I. Yeah, so I went from the starting point of.
Speaker B:From the point of view of a gay man who suffered for who he is, what would the perfect kind of alter ego or, you know, the.
Speaker B:What would perfection look like to him?
Speaker B:What would the ideal gay man look like to him?
Speaker B:And I came up with Guy and then started dismantling it and picking it apart.
Speaker B:He's gorgeous, Guy, isn't he?
Speaker A:So whole.
Speaker A:He is so gorgeous.
Speaker A:He is so gorgeous.
Speaker A:And then he's got these parents.
Speaker A:That's one of the voice notes I sent to you.
Speaker A:When he comes out to his parents I was like, he deserved so much better than that.
Speaker B:Oh, well, should I tell you what as well?
Speaker B:Going back to my brilliant editor.
Speaker B:So this was one that I, as I said to you, I started writing it before Albert and Ted when I didn't have a deal.
Speaker B:And then when my current editor took.
Speaker B:Took me over, I sent it to her.
Speaker B:And I didn't have that coming out scene.
Speaker B:And I think actually it was just because I've written so many coming out scenes now.
Speaker B:I thought he had nothing new to say on the subject.
Speaker B:And she said, no, you need the coming out scene for Guy.
Speaker B:So that was the last scene I wrote in that book.
Speaker A:Mm.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:And it is.
Speaker A:It's a really sort of key scene to understand.
Speaker B:I know it should have been there in the beginning, shouldn't it?
Speaker B:It should have been there.
Speaker A:I think you got.
Speaker A:It sounds like you go on journeys.
Speaker A:Like your characters as well.
Speaker A:You're saying adding them, that's probably why they're so authentic as well, because you put so much into them of sort of, you know, you're saying they should have been there, but it's that you're putting that extra heart in, sort of work out the story for us, which is.
Speaker B:I literally put.
Speaker B:I mean, without wanting to sound melodramatic, I put everything in.
Speaker B:Into books so that it literally gets to the end of a day like this.
Speaker B:And I mean, I'm warming up now, but I said to you at the beginning, I feel so spent because at the end of the day writing, I just put everything into it and I'm a wreck.
Speaker A:That's so funny you say that.
Speaker A:Because my next question, as you were talking, I was like, oh, I probably need to sort of revisit this one a little bit.
Speaker A:But given that you were just saying how there are versions of you in the characters and, you know, with one love.
Speaker A:There are.
Speaker A:It is a heartwarming read.
Speaker A:There are some really emotional scenes.
Speaker A:You know, there's a lot of intimacy, both sort of sexually, but also between the two men, sort of, you know, analyzing their relationship together.
Speaker A:And I wondered what it was like for you to write those scenes.
Speaker A:Like there's really sort of, you know, Guy coming out.
Speaker A:You do use the humor as well.
Speaker A:But how do you feel when you write those?
Speaker B:I love writing humor because as you would expect for it to work, you've got to make yourself laugh.
Speaker B:And I love writing humor.
Speaker B:When you write something difficult and painful, by the same token, for it to work, it's got to cause you pain.
Speaker B:And yeah, sometimes it does.
Speaker B:This new book that I'm writing at the moment, I. I'm about eight weeks into it and I made myself cry for the first time about two weeks ago and I thought, yes, great, I'm on the right track, because if you don't, it's not going to work, it's not going to do that to the reader.
Speaker B:And also, actually, one thing I do, I mean, it was quite useful for me, much as I had to go through 10 years of rejection before I was published, it was quite useful for me to hit my stride as a novelist a bit later in life and to have done different careers and lived in different places and have had so many failed relationships and attempts at relationships.
Speaker B:It's unbelievable because it does actually give you the material.
Speaker B:And that scene you're talking about with Guy, if you add personal details and it can really kind of open up the old wounds or the feelings for you.
Speaker B:And I've never told anybody this, but when I first was going to come out to my mum and dad, I sent them a letter.
Speaker B:I was staying with some friends and holiday from university and I sent them a letter because I just.
Speaker B:I was happy to come out to them and I mean, terrified and all that, but I was ready to come out to them.
Speaker B:But that first initial, sit down, I've got something to say.
Speaker B:And just kind of coming out with it, I just found it really difficult.
Speaker B:So I thought, right, I'll send them a letter and I'll time it so that I get home on the morning it's arrived and then we can sit down and talk about it.
Speaker B:And I was, you know, that was less daunting to me, but it was just before Christmas and I went home from my friend's house in Buckinghamshire, sitting on the train, thinking, this is pre mobile phones and everything, Remember thinking, I've just come out to my mum and dad and I'm going to get back and we're going to discuss it all, but I've laid out my feelings first, so I'll pick up from there.
Speaker B:I got home and walked into the house and my mom was in the kitchen doing something and didn't bat an eyelid.
Speaker B:I was like, oh, did you get my letter?
Speaker B:She said, what letter?
Speaker B:And because of the Christmas post, it hadn't arrived.
Speaker B:This was a Saturday morning, I had to get up on the.
Speaker B:So I glossed over it and on the Monday morning, got up at like 6 o' clock in the morning and sat hovering by the door to intercept this letter, which, by the way, I still have.
Speaker B:And I've Read it and it was.
Speaker B:It was bang on, that letter.
Speaker B:I was really proud of myself because I was very young and was all over the place at the time.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:So sorry, I'm rabbiting on about my experience.
Speaker B:But with Guy, what I did was, without giving too much away, had him do exactly the same thing.
Speaker B:Partly because I thought, how do I write a coming out scene?
Speaker B:Which is different to all the others I've written and anyone that anybody else may write.
Speaker B:And I thought, right, well, why not do what I did?
Speaker B:And he writes a letter anytime, sending it, and it's just before Christmas and he comes back and he's not arrived.
Speaker B:But he does what I didn't do.
Speaker B:He sits down and tells them there and them.
Speaker B:And the only reason I didn't actually, in fairness, was because my dad wasn't there and I wanted to tell them together.
Speaker B:He was out somewhere.
Speaker B:I don't know where he was.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So if you feed in personal details that kind of open up the memories, it becomes raw and all that's gonna work, I think, anyway.
Speaker A:Well, I agree because I know, as I say, I literally put the book down and messaged you.
Speaker A:And I was like, he deserves so much more than that.
Speaker A:It was such a brave thing to do that I was like, oh, she's.
Speaker B:Such a bitch's mum, isn't she?
Speaker A:She really is.
Speaker A:She is awful.
Speaker A:Awful, but kind of fabulous though.
Speaker B:Can I just say as well, what's interesting is the number of gay men I know of who have good relationships with the mums and dads.
Speaker B:But when you actually pick apart the initial response, they were rejected.
Speaker B:I know somebody who was kicked out of his house and his mum and dad are both ill. Well, his dad's actually just died.
Speaker B:His mum and dad were both ill recently and he was back there.
Speaker B:They had such a good relationship.
Speaker B:He was back there looking after them.
Speaker B:And, you know, we often say, oh, yeah, I have a great relationship with my mum and dad.
Speaker B:We were.
Speaker B:We went on a journey, but often that journey involves the gay man sucking up horrendous things that should never be said to a child who is meant to be loved unconditionally.
Speaker B:I. E not unconditioned that they are straight.
Speaker B:But yeah, he.
Speaker B:That's interesting for me with Guy, again, not to spoil too much that he has this horrendous, horrendous mom and dad, but the mum's the kind of front woman in that relationship and their relationship changes later on and they do that thing of glossing over what happened.
Speaker B:And, you know, Danny who was there for a lot of it and the most uncomfortable lunch, which is possibly my favorite scene I've ever written.
Speaker B:He's an uncomfortable reminder of what they used to be like and say.
Speaker B:So they kind of don't like being around him and want to cut him out.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:She's a really interesting character, isn't she?
Speaker A:Like, as you say later on as well, you're like, what are you thinking?
Speaker A:What are you thinking?
Speaker A:Like, bless her.
Speaker A:Oh, well, we could talk about it all day because it's such a fabulous read.
Speaker A:It's out on the 18th of January.
Speaker A:It's one that I would highly recommend.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:And I can totally see myself picking it up again as well and reading it again.
Speaker A:And if you haven't read any of Matt's other books, definitely pick them up too, because he is just wonderful.
Speaker A:And I can guarantee you're in for a real treat with all of them.
Speaker B:Thank you, Helen.
Speaker B:That's very nice of you.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Oh, you know, I'm a huge fan of yours.
Speaker A:I'm just like, I can't wait for new books.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, itchy fingers to get my hands on them.
Speaker B:I'm very excited because the first book of mine that you read was Albert Entry Soul.
Speaker B:I'm very excited about the little bonus book I've written for next year.
Speaker B:I don't know if you've heard about this yet.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So you know the Quick Reads Initiative, which is great short novels, about a quarter of the length of a full length novel, and they're only a pound, and they're accessible for people who wouldn't ordinarily read.
Speaker B:The aim is to get them reading again.
Speaker B:The initiative is run by the reading agency, and they're giving away on World Book Night, thousands of them.
Speaker B:Anyway, I was so lucky.
Speaker B:They asked me to write one this year and I've set it in Toddington, the home of Albert Entwistle.
Speaker B:And some of the characters and locations, it's a completely different story, but some of them make reappearances.
Speaker B:And I'm really excited about that.
Speaker A:I'm really excited about it.
Speaker A:I saw that and it's such a brilliant idea.
Speaker A:I always remember the beginning of lockdown.
Speaker A: Back in: Speaker A:She said, but I've never read a book as an adult since leaving school, and I don't know where to start.
Speaker A:And then she was like, all she would read were, like, gossipy magazines.
Speaker A:And she.
Speaker A:I really Want to read a book?
Speaker A:So we chatted for a while and she found.
Speaker A:And she's like.
Speaker A:I think she was like, I read one book a year now.
Speaker A:And I was like, still makes you a reader, doesn't.
Speaker B:Yeah, it doesn't matter.
Speaker B:Did you direct her to Quick Reads?
Speaker A:I didn't know about them at the time.
Speaker B:They're brilliant.
Speaker B:I've read loads of them.
Speaker B:I've read loads of them.
Speaker B:I've read them by Paula Hawkins, Graham Norton, Jenny Colgan, Candice Carty Williams.
Speaker B:Yeah, they're great.
Speaker B:And I loved writing little.
Speaker B:I mean, I say little, it's not that short.
Speaker B:It's like a proper book.
Speaker B:But, yeah, it was great.
Speaker B:And it was great to revisit the setting for Albert and some of those.
Speaker A:Characters before we go on to talk about Matt's desert island books.
Speaker A:All of the books that we're talking about will be linked in the show notes with links to 5.
Speaker A:So don't worry about trying to scribble them down.
Speaker A:You will be able to find them all easily afterwards.
Speaker A:So, Matt, how did you find choosing your desert island books?
Speaker A:Was it easy for you?
Speaker B:No, it's not easy, actually, because I read so much, I literally read all the time.
Speaker B:And you take something from all of them.
Speaker B:There are obviously books that really make an impact, you know, and have a more profound effect than others, but you do have to think about them.
Speaker B:It's also ones that you go back and reread, isn't it?
Speaker B:So that's often a good indicator.
Speaker B:But, yeah, it's always nice to go back and think about the books that have shaped me as a writer, as a reader, as a person.
Speaker B:So, yeah, it's been great.
Speaker A:Oh, well, I was so excited when I got your list because we share three books that I love too, and I was just like, yes, two I haven't read.
Speaker A:But, yeah, let's get started.
Speaker A:You want to tell us about your first choice?
Speaker B:So my first is the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe by C S Lewis.
Speaker B:And this is because it's the book that really switched me on to reading.
Speaker B:I always used to love my mum reading the stories when we were kids, but I do remember her reading this to me, my brother and sister.
Speaker B:And it opened something up in me, I think.
Speaker B:First of all, there was.
Speaker B:I was being bullied, I was being homophobically bullied and I needed an escape.
Speaker B:And, you know, this book quite literally has another world, which is an escape for the characters who are children.
Speaker B:And I loved it.
Speaker B:I loved all of them.
Speaker B:I read them so Many times.
Speaker B:I still reread them every few years now.
Speaker B:I've still got my original copy that.
Speaker B:Well, it was my mum's.
Speaker B:Not sure what my brother and sister will think about the fact that I've snaffled it.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I've still got it.
Speaker B:And it didn't just give me an escape.
Speaker B:It opened up my mind to the idea of creativity providing an escape.
Speaker B:And I think that ultimately inspired me to be a writer.
Speaker B:Although it took me a long time to come to that realization.
Speaker B:Partly because, like the character Charlie and the Madonna of Bolton and also Danny in One Love.
Speaker B:I think if you're from working class background in the north of England in those days, I just didn't know anybody who made a living from their creativity or any of the creative industries.
Speaker B:And you've no model to follow.
Speaker B:You have to slightly invent the path for yourself.
Speaker B:So it did take me a while.
Speaker B:But this I would.
Speaker B:If I had to trace it back.
Speaker B:This is where I say.
Speaker B:I'd say it started.
Speaker A:That's so interesting.
Speaker A:It's so funny because it's.
Speaker A:The parallel is like, I remember my mum reading it to me as well.
Speaker A:My brother and my sister and I just loved it.
Speaker A:And I will say it's the book that made me a reader for life.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:It's just so magical, isn't it?
Speaker A:And just I remember, like, when she got to the bit where Lucy goes through the wardrobe and she's like, that's enough for tonight.
Speaker A:And I was like.
Speaker A:I think it was like the first time I experienced a cliffhanger in a book and just been like, I want more.
Speaker A:This is such a great feeling.
Speaker B:That's hilarious.
Speaker B:Your mum knew what she was doing.
Speaker A:She did.
Speaker A:Well, I don't know because I was probably bouncing around, not going to bed after that.
Speaker B:But she knew how to get you into reading, how to make you a reader.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which is what A great gift from your mum.
Speaker B:Where are you in the birth order, by the way?
Speaker B:Because I'm one of three.
Speaker A:I'm the youngest.
Speaker B:Oh, middle.
Speaker A:How are you?
Speaker A:I'm the baby, the annoying baby of the family.
Speaker B:And that was the difficult middle one.
Speaker A:He's great, actually.
Speaker A:Both of them are wonderful.
Speaker A:I have wonderful siblings.
Speaker A:So I have to say that because I hope they're listening.
Speaker A:It's funny how we read books differently and experience them.
Speaker A:So like you were saying, like, about the escape into Narnia, which, you know, I would love to.
Speaker A:I still.
Speaker A:If I stay in a hotel and there's an old wardrobe, I have to Put my hand into the back of the wardrobe just to see.
Speaker A:But for me, it was like Lucy was the character.
Speaker A:And I just always really admired her.
Speaker A:Just thought she was so brave.
Speaker A:And I was quite.
Speaker A:I wasn't that child at all.
Speaker A:So I just found her a really interesting character, somebody who I wanted to be like.
Speaker A:Like go on adventures.
Speaker B:I actually.
Speaker B:I really empathized with Edmund, the one who feels not as good as the others.
Speaker B:And he goes off to cause trouble, to get attention and to create a space for himself.
Speaker B:I really liked him.
Speaker A:I was going to ask you.
Speaker A:I was like, I wondered whether you identified with any of the characters in it more than the others.
Speaker B:Yeah, Edmund all the way.
Speaker B:Lucy I liked Lucy.
Speaker B:And Peter.
Speaker B:Susan I liked.
Speaker B:But then towards the end of the series, she gets into boys and makeup and she stops coming to Narnia, doesn't she?
Speaker A:She grows up.
Speaker B:She basically grows up.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But it was all about Edmund.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Lucy's kind of the empathy figure, isn't she?
Speaker B:But he's offered up as the empathy figure.
Speaker B:But with me, it was Edmund and the lure of Turkish Delight.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's so funny.
Speaker A:But I don't know how old I was when I read it, but I waited until I was 30.
Speaker A:And when we got two cats, they were both called Lucy and Mr. Tumnus.
Speaker A:They've now gone back to Narnia, bless them.
Speaker A:But that's how much I loved the book.
Speaker A:I waited years to have cats called Lucy and Mr. Douglas.
Speaker A:And talking about finding characters that you relate to, I think now I was just thinking of you as a little boy growing up and being bullied, which is horrendous.
Speaker A:I don't remember any characters when I was growing up who would have been from the gay community unless I sort of read it and didn't recognize.
Speaker A:But I certainly can't think of anyone.
Speaker A:I think, now there's more, aren't there?
Speaker A:Like the Heartstopper series and things.
Speaker A:And I wondered, how important is it, do you think, for children to see themselves represented in literature?
Speaker A:And would you ever consider writing a book for younger readers?
Speaker B:Funnily enough, yeah, I do have an idea for a series of books for younger readers which isn't a million miles away from the idea in Narnia of finding an escape and creating it for yourself?
Speaker B:I have been toying with the idea of that for years and making notes and trying to work through it in my head.
Speaker B:But, yeah, it's one of the things I explore in One Love is, you're absolutely right that when I was growing up there weren't.
Speaker B:There was the occasional gay man in the public eye.
Speaker B:Usually he was a figure of fun to be ridiculed, of a tragedy figure who you came to a messy end.
Speaker B:But there were very few who are visible, very few who you'd want to be like.
Speaker B:Very few you'd want to be like.
Speaker B:And there were zero relationships.
Speaker B:And this is what I'm saying about One Love.
Speaker B:I explore the idea of when you've not got a template.
Speaker B:You know, I was just saying about with my career I had to kind of work out a path for myself.
Speaker B:When you've not got a template to follow for what a healthy gay relationship looks like, you do have to.
Speaker B:It's a bit of a struggle to get there.
Speaker B:At least that's my excuse for waiting for it, taking me 40 odd years to get it right.
Speaker B:But I mean, on one hand I do think it's a great privilege of living a queer life that you are subject to less pressure and expectation because there's almost an expectation that you were going to live a bit more freely and alternatively and you're not going to follow Templars.
Speaker B:But when I was growing up, you'd look at straight relationships in films and in books and you'd take your modeling from that.
Speaker B:But it's never going to be quite right, is it?
Speaker B:So you're always going to end up a bit of a mess.
Speaker B:So I do think it's very important, absolutely important.
Speaker A:Well, can you please.
Speaker A:I mean, as you were talking about your idea, I was sitting here going, yeah, yeah, yeah, please do it, please do it.
Speaker B:You know what, I've not quite like.
Speaker B:I've not quite nailed it it.
Speaker B:I've sat down and reread all these books, not just an Arnia ones, never ending story, a stitching time, all those and made notes and I've just got like absolute white noise of notes and I need to kind of sit down and get my head around it.
Speaker B:But yeah, hopefully one day.
Speaker B:I've got too many ideas at the moment for books I want to write for adults.
Speaker B:I can't write them quick enough because I've got so many ideas.
Speaker A:Oh, well, keep them coming, keep them coming.
Speaker B:I will.
Speaker A:Should we move on to your second choice?
Speaker A:This is one.
Speaker A:I'd not actually heard of this one before.
Speaker A:If we're doing in the same order that you sent it through to me.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:My next choice is Kiss of the Spider Woman by Manuel Puig, who's an Argentinian writer.
Speaker B:And I studied French and Spanish at university and we did lots of Literature and I really enjoyed this book.
Speaker B: sharing a prison cell in the: Speaker B:One's a political revolutionary.
Speaker B:Straight one is this camp gay window dresser.
Speaker B:And one's in prison for political reasons.
Speaker B:One's in prison for sexual offences.
Speaker B:And in order to take them away from the horrors of the situation, the camp gay window dresser recounts the plot lines from his favorite glamorous escapist cinema.
Speaker B:And it kind of takes him to another place.
Speaker B:So it's not dissimilar to Narnia, a kind of adult Narnia.
Speaker B:It's very similar thing that's going on and this transforms their relationship.
Speaker B:But I remember feeling when I. I think the germ of the idea for the Madonna of Bolton was in there, you know, I said earlier, that's about a boy seeing his escape through Madonna and seeing her as a spirit guide.
Speaker B:And actually what this character does, he takes popular culture, cinema, in this case, and it's kind of framework for living his life.
Speaker B:But it only takes him so far.
Speaker B:And I think.
Speaker B:I mean, it's difficult to say, I'm telling you that the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe kind of was the spark that made me a writer.
Speaker B:I'd say there's something in this that led to the Madonna of Bolton.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I love this book.
Speaker B:There's also a play in a musical and a film.
Speaker A:Oh, really?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think the film, one of the actors won an Oscar.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:I mean, it's not like a best.
Speaker B:It's quite culty, it's quite cult and counterculture.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I.
Speaker B:And it's, you know, it's Latin American, so it's not necessarily going to be a household name, the writer in the uk, But I love this one.
Speaker B:So that's my slightly off, outside the obvious.
Speaker A:I love that when something like that pops up, because when I looked at this, I was like, oh, I'd be really interested because it's quite.
Speaker A:I think in a prison cell, it's like there's not much that, you know, the fact that they're just trapped together.
Speaker A:I was like, oh, that's a really interesting idea, that two very different characters are forced together.
Speaker B:Funnily enough, I think that's why it works on stage, because it's in one.
Speaker B:But actually, each alternate chapter in the book is one of these escapist films.
Speaker B:So it's all about escapism, an escapism through creativity.
Speaker B:So there you've got a through line to the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and my response to it and the Madonna of Bolton.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:Love it.
Speaker A:So now your third book is also one that I hadn't heard of.
Speaker A:Where have I been?
Speaker B:No, but you've heard of what it's about.
Speaker A:Oh, yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But I was like, oh, it's an interest.
Speaker A:I love it when there's like interesting choices come up.
Speaker A:So tell us about your third choice, Matt.
Speaker B:So the book is a biography of Thomas Hardy by Claire Tomalin.
Speaker B:It's called the Time Torn Man.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:I've picked this one because, you know, the brief was books that shaped me and you know, as I said to you before, it took me a while to get to where I wanted to be because I didn't have a set path.
Speaker B:I made documentaries for 12 years in television and loved it.
Speaker B:It was great.
Speaker B:I worked for a long time for the South bank show and I made a Pro, which was an art series profiling artists of all disciplines.
Speaker B:I spent several months making a documentary about Claire Tomalin, this biographer, while she was researching and writing her biography of Thomas Hardy.
Speaker B:And he was a working class writer who was subjected to cultural snobbery from the establishment and his books had been rejected at first.
Speaker B:He had to really battle to break through.
Speaker B:And at the time I wasn't published, I was being rejected by everybody.
Speaker B:I was being subjected to cultural snobbery.
Speaker B:And when I made this documentary about Claire Tomlin writing this book and she went into all these issues and we went out and about in Dorset and Cornwall where he met his wife and all these local.
Speaker B:From the books and I read all the books.
Speaker B:My mum had been a big fan.
Speaker B:This really inspired me to keep going and, you know, saying I had no pathway.
Speaker B:This gave me something of a pathway actually, by looking about, looking at his journey and what he'd been through.
Speaker B:So that's why I picked this book.
Speaker A:That's so interesting because I didn't know that he'd been rejected before.
Speaker A:When I, when you send it through, I was like, oh, that's really interesting because you kind of always think like the classics were just, you know, there and it's, it's inspiring that it's come through to you.
Speaker A:And I think you sharing your story, I mean, like when you look at your crowdfunding, there must be so many people who are out there desperate to get their books out.
Speaker A:It's so inspiring that people share those stories because it, you know, it will help people.
Speaker A:But I thought this was a really interesting one because it just, just I had no idea.
Speaker B:Yeah, it absolutely is important.
Speaker B:I completely agree with you.
Speaker B:If.
Speaker B:If I hadn't had access to this story, Thomas Hardy's story, I probably wouldn't have.
Speaker B:I know it seems very different, me crowdfunding a book about Madonna 150 years later, but if it hadn't been for Thomas Hardy, I possibly wouldn't have done so.
Speaker B:It is important to find that inspiration.
Speaker A:I think it's really important.
Speaker A:I think, you know, when you hear authors talking all the time about finding, you know, their struggles, I think it's, you know, they.
Speaker A:Everyone struggles, I don't think.
Speaker A:Well, there's probably a very few who just sort of fall in and do very, very well without the sort of hard work.
Speaker A:But it's, you know, you have to really love what you're doing to go through the struggle.
Speaker A:I want to say thank you for.
Speaker A:For doing all that because, you know, your books continue to bring so much joy.
Speaker A:So I'm so glad that you.
Speaker A:You have done what you have.
Speaker B:Oh, thank you.
Speaker A:Keep doing it.
Speaker B:I will.
Speaker B:As long as you'll have me.
Speaker B:I' Always.
Speaker A:Always.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I'm very excited about book number four, because I love this book, too.
Speaker B:It's brilliant, isn't it?
Speaker B:The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller.
Speaker B:If I had to pick one, it would probably be the number one.
Speaker B:And actually, there's less of a story about this other than after I made documentaries for telly.
Speaker B:I spent three years as the arts and entertainment correspondent, the culture editor on Channel 4 News, and I covered all the arts, theatre, film, music, as well as publishing.
Speaker B:But I used to.
Speaker B:I love the Women's Prize for fiction.
Speaker B:It was called the Orange Prize in those days because it was sponsored by Orange, the old mobile phone company.
Speaker B:And I used to do a live broadcast from the ceremony every year.
Speaker B:And this was the first year I did it, I think.
Speaker B:And I just absolutely loved this book.
Speaker B:Still, there were very few books with gay characters about gay experiences and gay, gay relationships.
Speaker B:This came along by a straight woman.
Speaker B:She reworked Greek mythology from the Iliad to create the gay love story of Achilles and Patroclus.
Speaker B:And I just love the fact that they're not twisted villains or tragedy figures.
Speaker B:They don't provide light relief or camp fun.
Speaker B:They're just in love with each other, like the lead characters in any straight romance.
Speaker B:And it's just a beautiful account of romantic lust, intimate love, gay or straight.
Speaker B:And when that was a hit and won the award, I just remember thinking, oh, maybe the tide's turning.
Speaker B:So that did inspire me and Actually, it was a huge hit at the time and very acclaimed, but years later was rediscovered on Tick Tock and became an even bigger mainstream hit.
Speaker B:And I don't know, I just, I remember meeting her.
Speaker B:So at the time I was.
Speaker B:Was on telly all the time and quite relaxed about that.
Speaker B:And I met Madeline Miller, who'd written the book, and it was her first TV interview and she was really nervous and I was really nervous about meeting her because I thought she was so amazing.
Speaker B:And she'd written this huge hit gay book when I was struggling to get mine published.
Speaker B:And we kind of had that little bonding thing.
Speaker B:And I just thought that book was so amazing and touched so many people.
Speaker B:And it's also a reminder, you know, going back to the time of ancient Greece, it's a reminder that queer history isn't all about persecution and bigotry and oppression.
Speaker B:There are the occasional moments of acceptance and tolerance, as there was in ancient Greece.
Speaker B:And yeah, that's the song of Achilles.
Speaker B:Madeline Miller, possibly my number one on the list, even though it's the fourth.
Speaker A:One we've talked about, it is.
Speaker A:I mean, I hosted a read along for it and I was just checking, actually, as you're speaking, because I was like, I feel like.
Speaker A:But only last year, June, last year, I hosted a read along on Instagram.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:I don't know about 15 other readers who.
Speaker A:We'd all put it off because we're like, oh, it's.
Speaker A:Is it one of those books that's really hyped and, you know, is it going to be a bit of a letdown?
Speaker A:We all loved it and I think, yeah, as you say.
Speaker A:I would say it's just one of those great love stories.
Speaker A:She writes it so beautifully and her descriptions are just amazing, aren't they?
Speaker A:We all absolutely loved her.
Speaker A:It's so beautiful and it's sexy.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker B:And the other thing, the other thing about that book, when I was being told by publishers your gay central character and gay love stories, straight women are not going to be interested if you want to have a hit book.
Speaker B:The majority of readers are women.
Speaker B:You've got to appeal to straight women.
Speaker B:They just won't get this.
Speaker B:And then Song of Achilles camera came along and just blew that criticism out of the water because, you know, so many straight women have enjoyed it.
Speaker B:So many straight women have enjoyed it.
Speaker B:And actually it's a love story.
Speaker B:And just because the character's two men doesn't mean they're not going to be able to empathize or engage or relate it to their experiences of being in love as a woman with a man.
Speaker B:I mean, what utter crap.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think that's really.
Speaker A:I can see why they'd probably think it.
Speaker A:But, you know, I just.
Speaker A:If I want.
Speaker A:If I want to read a love story, I want to read a healthy relationship and a love story that's beautiful.
Speaker A:And I don't really care who the characters are as long as I believe them and I feel for them.
Speaker B:And I agree with you.
Speaker A:Yeah, so I think that's really.
Speaker B:I agree with you.
Speaker B:And actually, if they're from a different.
Speaker B:If they're of a different gender or a different background or from a different country or a different civilization, as it.
Speaker B:In the case with these two, actually, that's.
Speaker B:You don't just want to read about people like yourself.
Speaker B:You know, reading about other people and getting inside their heads, people who are very different is a really enriching, interesting experience.
Speaker B:And it makes you a better person, it makes you a better member of society because you can empathize with people who may seem to be different but actually have big similarities.
Speaker B:You know, I feel quite passionately about that and how patronizing to straight women readers to say they're not going to be able to empathize with gay men.
Speaker B:Meanwhile, a lot of crap.
Speaker B:I think this book emboldened me, actually, and made me feel more determined to keep going.
Speaker A:I wonder if that sort of thought came from this sort of view.
Speaker A:I mean, I've spoken to a few authors about this of, you know, when people sort of think about rom coms and romances and chick lit as sort of, you know, a bit looked down on.
Speaker A:You know, obviously there are the sort of, you know, the quick romances that sort of, you know, the more commercial ones which, you know, if that's what you love, that's great as well.
Speaker A:But I think that's a really strange thing.
Speaker A:As I say, I. I don't care.
Speaker A:And that I.
Speaker A:And actually I do want to learn what other people's experiences are.
Speaker A:I think that's one of the brilliant things about being a reader.
Speaker A:You can experience so many different lives and it's important.
Speaker A:That's really important.
Speaker B:Well, I also.
Speaker B:There's some misogyny in there.
Speaker B:It's interesting to me that people talk about the kind of fun pop music a woman might listen to for a bit of escapism or the kind of book you might want to read on holiday.
Speaker B:People talk about it as a trashy novel or a guilty pleasure and men go and watch a football game and it's Elevated into this beautiful game.
Speaker B:The stadiums are the cathedrals of the modern age.
Speaker B:It's got a spiritual element.
Speaker B:No, it's not.
Speaker B:I've been to loads of football games.
Speaker B:What a lot of crap.
Speaker B:And actually, how dare they say that something a woman enjoys culturally should be a guilty pleasure?
Speaker B:Like you should be ashamed of it, you know, what a load of rubbish.
Speaker B:And actually, they've often kind of camp, visually presenting gays.
Speaker B:We've often been subjected to snobbery that isn't a million miles away from misogyny because we can be female associating.
Speaker B:You know, they see us as.
Speaker B:Sometimes it's light relief and a bit of fun.
Speaker B:And everybody likes gays because they get at parties and they tell funny stories and they're great dancers.
Speaker B:And actually, that's not just our lane.
Speaker B:We can also do work that makes you think and takes you somewhere else and can be intellectually enriching.
Speaker B:You know, we're not just the light.
Speaker B:Bit of thumb.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I think there is a parallel there.
Speaker A:It's interesting you said that.
Speaker A:You know, what just popped into my head when you were saying that?
Speaker A:I always think back to it because I thought it was such a powerful way to end your novel.
Speaker A:So at the back of the Secret Life of Albert Entwistle, there's a series of interviews that you printed with men sharing their experiences.
Speaker A:And I just thought that was.
Speaker A:I can't remember seeing it done before, but it's so.
Speaker A:And it stayed with me as well.
Speaker A:But it's not that, you know, it's not light and, you know, it's not something to be laughed about, these experiences.
Speaker A:And I think those were.
Speaker A:Yeah, like, was it men sort of in their 60s, 50s, 60s, sharing their experiences?
Speaker A:And I just thought that was.
Speaker A:Was not something I'd seen before.
Speaker B:Some were older, one or two were older.
Speaker B: the big gay magazine, it was: Speaker B:And we did lots of interviews with older gay men about their experiences, whether it's familial rejection, imprisonment, professional dismissal, you know, electric shock therapy, even eviction from, you know, all of it and blackmail.
Speaker B:And I wanted.
Speaker B:That inspired me to write Albert Entwistle, which, as you know, is about an older gay man who sets.
Speaker B:Gay man who sets off in search of the lost love of his life, who he's not seen for 50 years because they were torn apart cruelly in another.
Speaker B:In another society, when you know, values were very different and it was.
Speaker B:I think I was telling my editor at the time about it and she said, why don't you go back to the inspiration and when you were at Attitude and you interviewed a lot of these older men, why don't you interview some older men for the book?
Speaker B:So, yeah, I did and it can be hard hitting, but that can be our lane.
Speaker B:And we shouldn't just be about the light fluffy fun, although I do like doing that as well.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:But it's important to show all sides.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:There's, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, you can't just look at the life.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Texture.
Speaker A:Totally, totally.
Speaker A:Right then, should we move on to your final book?
Speaker A:Which is also one of my absolute favourites too.
Speaker B:Oh, I know.
Speaker B:I love this book.
Speaker B:I actually say if somebody's read this book and they don't like it, I don't see how we could be friends One Day by David Nichols.
Speaker B:If anybody hasn't read it, it tells a 20 year love story through a series of.
Speaker B:Of set piece scenes that all take place on the same day at yearly intervals.
Speaker B:I absolutely loved it.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's a friend.
Speaker B:Are there friends or are there more than friends kind of story.
Speaker B:And that in a way was the starting point for One Love.
Speaker B:And there is a hint in the title, actually, which isn't accidental.
Speaker B:And I did put one or two of my own little tributes in.
Speaker B:Like there's a scene in Thailand and something happens in Thailand which should take you back to what happened in One Day in Thailand without wanting to give away too much.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was.
Speaker B:I mean, it's.
Speaker B:The thing about One Love actually is it's got something to say about queer relationships and not following a template and living freely and how we can all learn from that, actually, straight people included.
Speaker B:Because we're all unique and individual and none of us should be restricted by a box or a template.
Speaker B:So One Day doesn't really have an overriding message.
Speaker B:But I just loved.
Speaker B:I just loved the characters and the love story and letting it breathe over time.
Speaker B:I think it's 20 years.
Speaker B:Yeah, 20 years.
Speaker B:And it starts at university or the end of university.
Speaker B:Mine starts at the beginning of university.
Speaker B:University.
Speaker B:But that's such a special time and such a formative time for so many of us.
Speaker A:I absolutely love this book.
Speaker A:It's just so full of heart, isn't it?
Speaker A:It's just beautiful.
Speaker A:I love his books.
Speaker A:I like.
Speaker A:It's just.
Speaker B:It is full of heart, tenderness, compassion.
Speaker B:I love that they're values that I very much try and channel.
Speaker B:So, yeah, he was inspiring in that sense.
Speaker A:It's the second time it's been picked, so when I did these on Instagram, Kate Sawyer, who wrote the Stranding and this Family, she picked it as well.
Speaker A:And I was like, it is my dream that one day David Nicholls would come and chat to me about his books, because I would love to know he's got a new book coming out next year, hasn't he, as well?
Speaker B:Yeah, he does.
Speaker B:And there's a new adaptation of One Day coming up, which is exciting.
Speaker A:I'm so excited for that.
Speaker A:I can't wait.
Speaker A:Can't wait.
Speaker A:Great choice.
Speaker A:I love that we love the same books.
Speaker B:We do.
Speaker A:I love your books and I love your book choices.
Speaker A:It's all good.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Oh, so the tough question then, Matt, if you could only read one of these books again, not that I would ever make you just have one of them, but which one would you pick?
Speaker A:If you could only have one of these books to read again, it would.
Speaker B:Be the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe or the Song of Achilles.
Speaker B:And I kind of feel like it should be the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe because it was the first.
Speaker B:But actually, if it was one I could only ever read again, it would probably be the Song of Achilles, just because I'd need the adult stimulation.
Speaker B:Yeah, I would go with the Song of Achilles, actually.
Speaker B:And when I did finally get married last year, we had passages from it in the script for Our Ceremony.
Speaker A:Oh, that's beautiful.
Speaker B:Oh, we did.
Speaker B:We had Walt Whitman poems and James Baldwin quotes, and it was all Carol Anne Duffy.
Speaker B:It was all, gay, lesbian, queer, queer, queer.
Speaker A:Fabulous.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:Amazing.
Speaker A:Oh, Matt, it has been absolutely wonderful to chat to you.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker B:You too.
Speaker B:It's been great for me.
Speaker B:I'm so glad that we finally got to do it and you got me at the end of a writing day, but you managed to perk me up.
Speaker A:So we'll see how much.
Speaker A:Because if we've still got it in us, we've got a bonus episode, so do keep an eye out for that one as well.
Speaker B:Oh, yes, we do, absolutely.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker B:Thank you, thank you.
Speaker A:I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I did.
Speaker A:It was so wonderful to check chat to Matt.
Speaker A:Do make sure that you pick up his new novel, One Love.
Speaker A:It is a brilliant read and I would highly recommend it.
Speaker A:If you did enjoy this episode, keep an eye out, as there is a bonus coming soon where I talk to Matt more about his life as a reader and a writer.
Speaker A:And he shares a bookish secret with us.
Speaker A:If you did enjoy this episode, I would be so grateful if you could take the time to rate, review, subscribe and tell your friends all about it.
Speaker A:Thank you for listening and I'll see you soon.
