Beyond the Silence: Exploring Trauma and Resilience with Josie Ferguson

Host: 00:00:02

Welcome to best book forward, the podcast where I talk to authors about the books that have shaped their lives.

Host: 00:00:08

Think of it as like a bookish version of Desert island discs.

Host: 00:00:12

Today, I'm so excited to be joined by Josie Ferguson.

Host: 00:00:15

he Waterstones debut prize of: 2024

Host: 00:00:24

In this episode, we'll explore explore the world of Josie's poignant story, discussing themes of sexual violence, trauma, and the resilience of women in times of trouble.

Host: 00:00:34

I would ask listeners to check the show notes for a list of potential triggers.

Host: 00:00:38

Of course, as always, we'll also hear the stories behind the five books that have shaped Josie's life.

Host: 00:00:46

Josie, welcome to best book forward and thank you so much for joining me.

Josie Ferguson: 00:00:51

Thank you so much for having me here today.

Josie Ferguson: 00:00:53

Super excited.

Josie Ferguson: 00:00:54

I've listened to your podcast since it began, so it's really wonderful to be here.

Host: 00:00:59

Oh, that's amazing.

Host: 00:01:00

Thank you so much.

Host: 00:01:02

I am so excited to talk about the silence in between.

Host: 00:01:05

It's one of my favourite books so far this year.

Host: 00:01:07

I've actually read it twice now, so I'd love if you could start us off by telling us a little bit about the story.

Josie Ferguson: 00:01:13

Absolutely.

Josie Ferguson: 00:01:14

So the silence in between is historical fiction, and it's inspired by several true stories.

Josie Ferguson: 00:01:20

is closed overnight in August: 1961

Josie Ferguson: 00:01:31

Lizette also has a teenage daughter, Ellie, and it's actually Ellie who decides to somehow escape East Berlin, find her baby brother in the west and bring him home again.

Josie Ferguson: 00:01:42

The book has a dual timeline, so a parallel story also unfolds during World War Two in Berlin, when Nazette is a young woman herself and what she experiences during the war and immediately afterwards.

Host: 00:01:55

That's amazing.

Host: 00:01:56

So historical fiction is one of my favorite genres.

Host: 00:02:00

I love it.

Host: 00:02:01

And when your proof came through, I can't remember exactly when it came through, but I'll show this on Instagram once this episode comes out.

Host: 00:02:08

But it's a really plain, sort of simple cover with just a yellow cover with a title and a Berlin stamp.

Host: 00:02:14

And I remember it coming thing and I was thinking, I don't think I've ever read anything really about the Berlin Wall before in popular fiction anyway.

Host: 00:02:22

And I loved the dual timelines that you used, so I wondered if you could talk about what it was about this time that interested you.

Josie Ferguson: 00:02:29

Gosh, I mean, I'm a bit of a history buff, and specifically, I mean, I just, I love Berlin.

Josie Ferguson: 00:02:37

And I've been there many, many times over the years.

Josie Ferguson: 00:02:40

And I was quite young when the Berlin Wall came down.

Josie Ferguson: 00:02:43

But I do remember the moment it happened.

Josie Ferguson: 00:02:46

I was on tv and my dad said, this is history in the making, you know, you've got to see this.

Josie Ferguson: 00:02:52

And many years later, when I.

Josie Ferguson: 00:02:55

When I went and visited, then, of course, I looked at all the different sites and I learned so much about the city.

Josie Ferguson: 00:03:01

But I mean, like you said, there are so few books that sort of, in mainstream literature at least, that have been written about the Berlin Wall.

Josie Ferguson: 00:03:11

And I became very interested in it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:03:13

And then I read this book called.

Josie Ferguson: 00:03:16

Well, I read many, many books, actually, when I was doing research.

Josie Ferguson: 00:03:20

But one of them was called a woman in Berlin, which is actually based just after the war.

Josie Ferguson: 00:03:26

And I became very interested in the sort of development of World War Two.

Josie Ferguson: 00:03:31

And then what happened afterwards?

Josie Ferguson: 00:03:32

And then what happened, of course, when east and West Germany were split.

Josie Ferguson: 00:03:38

And the initial inspiration for this book was actually during COVID and I live in Singapore.

Josie Ferguson: 00:03:47

And at the time, I was separated from all my family who live in Sweden and in Scotland and Singapore closed their borders.

Josie Ferguson: 00:03:57

And they were very extreme here.

Josie Ferguson: 00:04:00

And so it was actually two years before I was reunited with them.

Josie Ferguson: 00:04:05

And during that time, I had a baby.

Josie Ferguson: 00:04:07

So my son was born during lockdown in Singapore at the beginning of COVID And my family saw me when I was pregnant.

Josie Ferguson: 00:04:16

And then the next time they saw me was actually when he was almost two years old.

Josie Ferguson: 00:04:20

So I was going through this sort of personal separation from my family, like so many of us went through during COVID And I remember thinking, oh, you know, thank goodness, at least I'm with my children.

Josie Ferguson: 00:04:32

I haven't been separated from them.

Josie Ferguson: 00:04:34

And then I remembered this story that I had once read, which was, I'd read it in the Guardian newspaper.

Josie Ferguson: 00:04:42

And it was about a woman called Sigrid Paul.

Josie Ferguson: 00:04:45

And she was separated from her baby boy when the Berlin Wall came up.

Josie Ferguson: 00:04:51

And that was the spark of sort of inspiration of remembering this story and being in a sort of similar situation myself.

Josie Ferguson: 00:05:00

And.

Josie Ferguson: 00:05:01

Yeah, and that's where it all started.

Josie Ferguson: 00:05:03

And then I started down the rabbit hole of research, which went on for a long time.

Host: 00:05:08

I can imagine.

Host: 00:05:09

That's so interesting, isn't it?

Host: 00:05:10

Because, yeah, Covid did sort of cut us off in a very different way.

Host: 00:05:15

I think in the author's note in the proof I had, you talked about a friend reading it and sort of saying that some of it felt sort of unbelievable.

Host: 00:05:24

I remember, I think I was twelve when it came down.

Host: 00:05:26

But I actually more remember my mum's reaction because I remember her being really emotional about it.

Host: 00:05:31

I think you did do such a brilliant, brilliant job of portraying the fear and the uncertainty, particularly as Ellie is trying to cross over the border.

Host: 00:05:43

You know, you talk about the clicks on the phone and people in your building who are spying on you as well.

Host: 00:05:48

It's like.

Host: 00:05:49

It's really, really unsettling.

Host: 00:05:51

What was that research like for you to find those sort of stories?

Josie Ferguson: 00:05:55

I mean, so the research was.

Josie Ferguson: 00:05:56

Was really extensive.

Josie Ferguson: 00:05:57

And I read so many sort of personal accounts as well as watching films and documentaries.

Josie Ferguson: 00:06:04

And I'm sure maybe you've seen the lives of others.

Josie Ferguson: 00:06:08

I remembered watching that and I.

Josie Ferguson: 00:06:11

I mean, you know, the fact that this world of people sort of spying on each other and, you know, and telling on each other and it was.

Josie Ferguson: 00:06:21

It's unfathomable in a way that this wasn't even that long ago and that people were comfortable doing that.

Josie Ferguson: 00:06:28

And then to sort of discover that not only were they all spying each other and it was this sort of horrible society to live in from that respect, but also they were separated from their countrymen.

Josie Ferguson: 00:06:39

That their whole country was split in half and that I just found astounding.

Josie Ferguson: 00:06:45

And the more research I did, the more sort of bizarre things I uncovered.

Josie Ferguson: 00:06:49

I mean, that even.

Josie Ferguson: 00:06:50

Even the phone lines were cut.

Josie Ferguson: 00:06:52

So, you know, it went.

Josie Ferguson: 00:06:54

That's how extreme it was that they went to separating the east from the west.

Josie Ferguson: 00:06:59

And it's.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:01

I mean, it's horrifying what they went through.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:03

And I couldn't quite believe that people didn't really know about it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:07

I mean, people do know about it, but maybe not to that extent.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:11

And.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:12

Yes, so my friend, she read an early version of the book and she just said, well, I mean, it's a bit sort of unrealistic that the wall just sort of came up overnight.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:24

And I was like, no, no.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:25

I mean, that's what happened.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:27

I mean, they didn't build the physical wall overnight, but they closed that border overnight.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:32

People went to sleep and they woke up the next day and they no longer could move west.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:37

And, yeah, it does.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:39

It sounds unbelievable, but it's true.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:42

And everything in the book is historically accurate, even down to ridiculous things like sort of the weather on certain days.

Josie Ferguson: 00:07:51

But, yeah, I mean, and even during the war, there were people used to, in Berlin, they used to wrap towels around their heads because they believed that that would somehow save them from a direct hit by a bomb.

Josie Ferguson: 00:08:05

lin gave out cyanide pills in: 1945

Josie Ferguson: 00:08:16

I mean, all these details are, you know, unbelievable but true, which is fascinating.

Host: 00:08:22

I find it is.

Host: 00:08:23

And as it's so recent, and I was like, when I was reading again for the second time, I was thinking, it's incredible that we don't know that much, given that it's recent and it's, you know, our history.

Host: 00:08:34

So it's like, yeah, it's really interesting.

Host: 00:08:36

I don't know if they teach it in schools now or.

Josie Ferguson: 00:08:40

I think they're starting to.

Josie Ferguson: 00:08:42

I'm doing a talk at one of my old schools, actually, in a few weeks, and their ib students have been doing a whole section on the Cold War.

Josie Ferguson: 00:08:55

And interestingly, Berlin, the woman in Berlin, and how their experiences changed in East Berlin, which I find really interesting.

Josie Ferguson: 00:09:06

And I think specifically with this book, what I wanted to do was focus on women's stories as well.

Josie Ferguson: 00:09:13

I mean, history books have predominantly been written by men, and women's stories are rarely at the forefront.

Josie Ferguson: 00:09:20

And I think it's so important that their experiences aren't reduced to footnotes.

Josie Ferguson: 00:09:26

So that was very much what I wanted to do, was find the stories that are untold and the stories that have been forgotten.

Josie Ferguson: 00:09:35

And I think they often tend to be women's stories.

Josie Ferguson: 00:09:38

So that was my.

Josie Ferguson: 00:09:39

Very much my focus with this is Berlin, but the woman of Berlin and what happened to them, I think that's.

Host: 00:09:46

One of the things that's probably drawn me to historical fiction, like maybe in sort of recent years, because there has been a turn, you think, like people like Kristen Hanna, you know, who write more the women's stories, which I think is really, really important.

Host: 00:09:59

Those stories are told.

Host: 00:10:01

Which leads us to my absolute favourite.

Josie Ferguson: 00:10:03

I love Kristen Hannah.

Host: 00:10:04

She's amazing.

Josie Ferguson: 00:10:05

Outstanding.

Host: 00:10:06

I got to meet her a few years ago.

Josie Ferguson: 00:10:08

Oh, I'm so jealous.

Josie Ferguson: 00:10:10

Oh, my goodness.

Host: 00:10:10

Lovely.

Host: 00:10:11

She was so lovely and so interesting.

Host: 00:10:13

So if you ever get an opportunity.

Josie Ferguson: 00:10:14

Oh, wow.

Josie Ferguson: 00:10:15

Do a dream.

Host: 00:10:17

So let's move on to talk about your characters, particularly Lisette and her daughter Ellie.

Host: 00:10:22

Both quite complex characters who made for a really compelling read.

Host: 00:10:26

And there's so much that we uncover about them throughout the story.

Host: 00:10:30

Would you be able to tell us about the process of developing these two characters in particular?

Host: 00:10:34

And did the stories unfold as you wrote, or did you have a clear plan for them?

Josie Ferguson: 00:10:41

I think they definitely unfold as I wrote them.

Josie Ferguson: 00:10:46

I had an idea for both of them at the beginning, and they very much changed along the way.

Josie Ferguson: 00:10:53

I think Lisette, initially, in my mind, was not as sympathetic as she perhaps is now in the book.

Josie Ferguson: 00:11:02

And she's, they're both very complex characters.

Josie Ferguson: 00:11:06

And I'm actually a clinical psychologist originally, though I don't work as one anymore.

Josie Ferguson: 00:11:12

And I've always been fascinated by people's psychology and why we do what we do and, of course, how the past impacts the future.

Josie Ferguson: 00:11:23

to see Lisette in the, in the: 1960

Josie Ferguson: 00:11:41

So we can understand what's happened to her and how her personality has developed and how she's become who she is now.

Josie Ferguson: 00:11:49

Because when we meet her at the beginning of the book, she's quite a cold person, and she has quite a fraught relationship with her teenage daughter.

Josie Ferguson: 00:11:59

And I think if we don't get a glimpse of how she was as young Lisette, we would never really understand why she does the things that she does with Ellie.

Josie Ferguson: 00:12:11

She was an interesting one because I think the protagonist was always Lisette.

Josie Ferguson: 00:12:16

And then Ellie's story sort of snuck up on me, really.

Josie Ferguson: 00:12:22

Originally, it wasn't going to be her who was going to try and escape to the west.

Josie Ferguson: 00:12:29

It was going to be lisette who was going to try and get her baby back.

Josie Ferguson: 00:12:34

But then I sort of realized that it didn't really fit with her character and also with her age.

Josie Ferguson: 00:12:41

And let me explain that.

Josie Ferguson: 00:12:43

I think that Ellie is a teenager, and teenagers are spontaneous, and they do things without, without thinking them through.

Josie Ferguson: 00:12:53

And because of that, they are often the ones who dare to do things differently.

Josie Ferguson: 00:12:59

And so it didn't feel true for Lisette to do it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:13:04

She, I think many adults would have been too scared of the consequences.

Josie Ferguson: 00:13:09

But Elliot, who is a teenager, she doesn't see the consequences, really.

Josie Ferguson: 00:13:14

She just sort of goes in headfirst.

Josie Ferguson: 00:13:17

So that was how her story developed because it made more sense for her character to be the one to try and escape.

Josie Ferguson: 00:13:26

So that was really fascinating because that had not been my intention at the beginning.

Josie Ferguson: 00:13:30

And then they both kind of went in different directions, these characters.

Host: 00:13:35

And it makes sense because, yeah, obviously, teens would have that sort of daring side, but I'm just sort of trying to imagine it if it were told the other way.

Host: 00:13:43

And I think, yeah, it's unimaginable.

Host: 00:13:45

But, you know, if you were a mother and you had one child stuck in one place, another, you know, would you be able to move or would you be sort of stuck in that?

Host: 00:13:53

Sort of.

Host: 00:13:53

I mean, I hope I never had to find out, but the.

Josie Ferguson: 00:13:57

Sophie's choice, that.

Josie Ferguson: 00:13:58

Which way would you go?

Host: 00:13:59

Yeah.

Host: 00:14:00

Interesting.

Host: 00:14:01

Okay, so something we have to talk about is how you've written the unimaginable horrors endured by women during and after the war.

Host: 00:14:10

The use of rape as a weapon of war is a particularly harrowing aspect and made for a difficult read in places.

Host: 00:14:16

But I think it's so important that we keep telling these stories and learning and understanding.

Host: 00:14:21

How did you approach writing about such a sensitive and traumatic subject?

Josie Ferguson: 00:14:27

Yeah, I mean, I found this really hard, but I also felt at the same time that these stories are so important because people don't talk about them.

Josie Ferguson: 00:14:40

And the woman in Berlin, what they went through at the end of World War Two, I mean, it's horrifying, and the majority of people do not know what happened.

Josie Ferguson: 00:14:50

And there's this book that I mentioned earlier, women in Berlin.

Josie Ferguson: 00:14:54

She wrote an account, a personal account about what happened, happened to her.

Josie Ferguson: 00:14:58

And when she published this book, Germany refused to print it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:07

And there were two reactions.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:10

One reaction was, this isn't true.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:12

It didn't happen.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:14

And the other reaction was, well, shame, we don't talk about this.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:19

Okay, it did happen, but we don't talk about this.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:22

And it was published, though, in many other countries, and it actually became a big bestseller.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:28

And at the time, Marta Hillers is her name, but she published it anonymously.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:33

But at the time, she then said, I never want it to be published in Germany in my lifetime after the reaction that she received.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:42

So it wasn't.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:43

It wasn't published until many years later when she died, when it was finally, then published in German.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:48

And then it was well received.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:50

And I think that the people in Germany felt that it was time to understand and recognize those stories.

Josie Ferguson: 00:15:58

So, yeah, delving into the research of it was pretty traumatic in itself and to make sure that it was accurate, to make sure that I wasn't going in sort of a sensationalist direction.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:14

I didn't want to do that.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:15

I just wanted it to be honest.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:16

I just wanted it to be true.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:19

And that was.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:21

Yeah, that was.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:22

It was.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:22

It was really, really hard.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:24

But most people don't know those stories, and I think we need to learn from them.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:28

I mean, there are.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:29

Are so many parallels today.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:32

Rape being used as a weapon of war is still happening.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:35

I mean, it's happening, you know, right now in Mali and Sudan, it's happening, you know, obviously in Ukraine.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:45

And, yeah, there's this whole, the past is echoing into the future, into the present and to the future.

Josie Ferguson: 00:16:53

And it's something that we need to talk about because it's still happening and it needs to stop.

Host: 00:17:00

I think the way you wrote it, you're saying you didn't want to sort of make it.

Host: 00:17:03

You know, it's very raw when you're reading it and that some of the scenes, you know, they are upsetting, but it is sort of stop and make you think.

Host: 00:17:13

But I think what was really powerful at the end as well, when you talk about the numbers in your, I mean, I can't find it now.

Host: 00:17:20

Is it estimated as high as 2 million?

Josie Ferguson: 00:17:24

2 million, yeah, 2 million is what.

Host: 00:17:26

They believe, 2 million women.

Host: 00:17:27

And as you say, that's still happening now.

Host: 00:17:30

So that number, you know, around the world, it's really, really shocking.

Host: 00:17:33

So, yeah, I think hopefully, I don't know, hopefully people will learn and read and times will change.

Josie Ferguson: 00:17:39

But, yeah, I mean, I do think that books about the past can, you know, have the ability to change the future.

Josie Ferguson: 00:17:47

I mean, I think that we need to, well, yeah, teach our children, teach our sons and, you know, have a, have a dialogue around these things and, yeah, because it is, it's horrifying and it is, it's still ongoing.

Josie Ferguson: 00:18:03

And these, you know, there were these two, up to 2 million is what they believe the accurate number is across Germany during that time.

Josie Ferguson: 00:18:11

But also, I mean, a lot of these women were raped multiple times as well.

Josie Ferguson: 00:18:15

It wasn't just once.

Josie Ferguson: 00:18:17

And, yeah, it's just, it's horrifying.

Josie Ferguson: 00:18:21

It was, it was very hard writing it because I went into a very dark place myself.

Josie Ferguson: 00:18:26

You can't sort of escape from these stories, but they're still important.

Host: 00:18:34

And something you touched on as well in there is one of the characters where it's all coming to an end and they're talking about the husbands coming home and you sort of talk about Germany saying they didn't want this book published, but there was the women themselves.

Host: 00:18:44

There's one character who says, oh, I won't tell him for her husband coming home.

Host: 00:18:48

So the shame and trauma that these women had to carry.

Host: 00:18:52

Yeah, pretty shocking.

Josie Ferguson: 00:18:54

It really was.

Josie Ferguson: 00:18:55

It really was.

Josie Ferguson: 00:18:56

I think, I think the shame was one of the biggest things.

Josie Ferguson: 00:18:59

And I think that they also recognize that when a lot of the men came home that they, they wouldn't forgive the woman, even though obviously the woman were raped, it wasn't their choice.

Josie Ferguson: 00:19:11

But.

Josie Ferguson: 00:19:12

But that they.

Josie Ferguson: 00:19:13

The shame was placed on them by the men as well.

Josie Ferguson: 00:19:16

And so it was something that they decided to.

Josie Ferguson: 00:19:18

To bury and something they decided to collectively bury, which is what I find so fascinating that as, as a group, they all, the majority of these women decided to remain silent about it.

Host: 00:19:31

I think that's.

Host: 00:19:32

I mean, I don't know why.

Host: 00:19:33

It's just popped into my head.

Host: 00:19:34

I'm just trying to think what.

Host: 00:19:35

Heather Morris's newest book, the sisters, about the nurses.

Host: 00:19:41

The nurses haven't read it, but they had the same, like, some of them had to sort of almost volunteer to be the ones putting themselves forward to these men.

Host: 00:19:50

And they all collectively agreed that they would never say which women had done it together.

Host: 00:19:55

And it's been a secret that they've just.

Host: 00:19:57

Yeah, just really, I think that is, it's, you know, the strength of women in these awful, you know, situations, and they sort of coming together.

Host: 00:20:05

It's really quite incredible.

Josie Ferguson: 00:20:07

Yeah.

Josie Ferguson: 00:20:07

So it was definitely that I really wanted to touch on as well is.

Josie Ferguson: 00:20:10

Is look at the strength and the resilience of these women, of what they went through and how they somehow managed to band together and survive.

Josie Ferguson: 00:20:20

And there's this whole sort of section after the war when they become.

Josie Ferguson: 00:20:23

And my pronunciation is so bad, but the trimmer frau.

Josie Ferguson: 00:20:26

So the rubble women.

Josie Ferguson: 00:20:29

And I loved researching that period, actually, because these women, they'd just been through something horrific.

Josie Ferguson: 00:20:36

Obviously, Germany had lost the war.

Josie Ferguson: 00:20:39

They had also then discovered all the atrocities that their.

Josie Ferguson: 00:20:44

Their country, what had been done at the Holocaust.

Josie Ferguson: 00:20:48

And so they were going through sort of the horror of all of that, and then they're surrounded by just the destruction of their country and of their city.

Josie Ferguson: 00:20:56

And what they do is that they all get together and they start moving this rubble.

Josie Ferguson: 00:21:02

They put it all into their physical strength, which I love.

Josie Ferguson: 00:21:07

And I think that they found real mental strength in doing that, in banding together and coming together to build their country back and to make it, well, better and move away from the awful things that had happened over the past few years.

Host: 00:21:28

I loved that, actually.

Host: 00:21:29

I thought it was really interesting.

Host: 00:21:30

There's a scene where Lisetta's showing her hands, and they're all sore from where she's been, and she's a proud, you know, to come through.

Host: 00:21:37

And I thought that was a really interesting part.

Host: 00:21:40

Again, something I didn't know about as well.

Josie Ferguson: 00:21:42

The strength of these women that they realized they could do so much more than just be housewives.

Josie Ferguson: 00:21:47

And, you know, it was.

Josie Ferguson: 00:21:48

There were very few good things that came out of the war.

Josie Ferguson: 00:21:52

But this was one small thing for these women who had obviously suffered from all, all the rapes at the end of the war, that then this small positive thing was that they actually realized that they could do more with their lives.

Josie Ferguson: 00:22:08

They didn't just have to be demure women at home.

Host: 00:22:12

Yeah.

Host: 00:22:13

Interesting.

Host: 00:22:14

So, Josie, you talk.

Host: 00:22:16

You use a quote from Mozart that says, music is not in the notes, but in the silence in between.

Host: 00:22:21

We'll go on to talk about the music afterwards, but let's talk about silence and the themes of complicity and inaction.

Host: 00:22:27

There's a line where Lizette says, evil demanded little of me.

Host: 00:22:30

It merely asked me to remain silent, to do nothing, and I complied, which I thought was so powerful.

Host: 00:22:37

And again, I think she said something later about being guilty for not doing anything.

Host: 00:22:44

To me, this felt like a really timely theme to explore.

Host: 00:22:48

What inspired you to focus on the theme of silence and what do you hope readers will take away from it?

Josie Ferguson: 00:22:54

I've always been fascinated by bystanders in war.

Josie Ferguson: 00:22:59

You have the perpetrators and you have the victims, and then you have the bystanders who.

Josie Ferguson: 00:23:04

Who don't actually do anything.

Josie Ferguson: 00:23:08

But by not doing anything, they are complicit.

Josie Ferguson: 00:23:14

And this is something, again, which is happening the world over.

Josie Ferguson: 00:23:19

I mean, obviously, right now, everything that's going on in Palestine.

Josie Ferguson: 00:23:23

And, yeah, people are continuing to be silent about different topics.

Josie Ferguson: 00:23:29

And I think it is important to speak up about what you believe in, what you think is wrong.

Josie Ferguson: 00:23:37

And even on.

Josie Ferguson: 00:23:38

On a smaller level, I think, you know, even children, if they see someone being bullied at school, you know, it's.

Josie Ferguson: 00:23:45

It kind of.

Josie Ferguson: 00:23:46

It's through all walks of life that we can be silent and that we shouldn't be.

Josie Ferguson: 00:23:52

You know, we might be sitting on a bus and a man is harassing a woman and, you know, and we don't say anything.

Josie Ferguson: 00:23:58

And again, you're, you're not.

Josie Ferguson: 00:24:00

You're not the perpetrator, but by saying nothing, you're involved in that situation.

Josie Ferguson: 00:24:06

And, yeah, with Lisette, what happens is that she isn't a Nazi.

Josie Ferguson: 00:24:10

She never joined the nazi party, but she is aware of what is going on.

Josie Ferguson: 00:24:18

at the beginning and even in: 1938

Josie Ferguson: 00:24:27

And she sees these things and she really struggles within herself of whether to say something or not.

Josie Ferguson: 00:24:36

And it's tricky, though, because I think that most of us would like to believe that if we were in the same situation, we would do something.

Josie Ferguson: 00:24:46

We would say something.

Josie Ferguson: 00:24:47

But I don't think the majority of us would.

Josie Ferguson: 00:24:49

I think that there are.

Josie Ferguson: 00:24:51

We also recognize the consequences of speaking up.

Josie Ferguson: 00:24:55

And there's this moment, and I don't think I, it's a huge spoiler or anything, but there's this moment when Lisette sees a group of jewish people who are being led away.

Josie Ferguson: 00:25:06

And there is a woman who has a child, and she tries to hand her child to Lisette.

Josie Ferguson: 00:25:11

And Lisette doesn't know where they're going.

Josie Ferguson: 00:25:13

She doesn't know about the death camps, but she obviously knows wherever they're going is probably not good.

Josie Ferguson: 00:25:22

And she has a choice in this moment to take this child and she doesn't.

Josie Ferguson: 00:25:27

Three times she turns away.

Josie Ferguson: 00:25:29

And this is something that I think that we judge her for.

Josie Ferguson: 00:25:34

But at the same time, I think we need to recognize that what would have happened if she had taken that child, you know, she would have had nazi officers banging on her door.

Josie Ferguson: 00:25:46

You know, there were, you couldn't publicly speak out against the Nazis.

Josie Ferguson: 00:25:52

And then, of course, we look at the men who went off to war.

Josie Ferguson: 00:25:55

You know, you would have had many men who were nazi supporters and, of course, supported the war, but you had many men who, who were not Nazis and who did not support the war and did not want to fight.

Josie Ferguson: 00:26:06

But the consequences of saying no was death.

Josie Ferguson: 00:26:10

And again, I think that's something that people kind of forget, that it's not just black and white and the bystanders, that's where they are as well, that they're in this very gray area, and being silent has repercussions.

Host: 00:26:26

And as you say, it's really easy to imagine yourself and sort of be like, oh, I would have taken the child.

Host: 00:26:31

I would speak out.

Host: 00:26:32

I wouldn't do this.

Host: 00:26:33

But I think you explore it brilliantly because that scene where the mother is asking her to take the child, you know, you're thinking, you know, take him, but you can't because you're going to put everybody else at risk.

Host: 00:26:43

And it's just awful.

Host: 00:26:45

Just awful.

Host: 00:26:46

I think that's interesting, you say about the sort of, you know, the bystanders and, you know, as simple things as children, you know, seeing something at school, I think it's really important that we do talk about that.

Host: 00:26:57

And something that popped into my head is here in the UK recently, we've had these awful fascist riots.

Host: 00:27:04

And I don't know if you saw, you know, when people came out against them.

Josie Ferguson: 00:27:08

I have been hearing.

Josie Ferguson: 00:27:09

Yeah, about that.

Host: 00:27:10

It's incredible.

Host: 00:27:11

You think actually they were like, so loud.

Host: 00:27:14

And I thought, actually that's such a brilliant moment for people, sort of, you.

Josie Ferguson: 00:27:18

Know, that's the thing.

Josie Ferguson: 00:27:19

People can.

Josie Ferguson: 00:27:19

Yeah, people can make a difference.

Josie Ferguson: 00:27:21

They can make a difference, and we believe that we can't.

Josie Ferguson: 00:27:23

But if there's enough of us, then.

Josie Ferguson: 00:27:25

Then changes can be made.

Host: 00:27:27

Yeah.

Host: 00:27:28

Incredible.

Host: 00:27:29

Okay, let's move on to talk about the music in the book.

Host: 00:27:32

I just thought this was so clever, and I've never seen anything like this before.

Host: 00:27:37

So Ellie has this unique gift where she hears music that she sort of associates with people.

Host: 00:27:43

And you just describe each character's music so beautifully throughout.

Host: 00:27:49

So could you tell us where the inspiration came from for that idea?

Josie Ferguson: 00:27:52

Yes, absolutely.

Josie Ferguson: 00:27:54

I love answering this question because it's actually one of my favorite things about the book.

Josie Ferguson: 00:28:01

And I worried that some people would sort of see this leaning into magical realism, but that wasn't ever really my intention, because where this came from, embarrassingly enough, it's from a Reddit post.

Josie Ferguson: 00:28:15

And I was reading this post, and there was this girl, this woman, who had said, I've been watching the show, Dexter, with my boyfriend.

Josie Ferguson: 00:28:26

Now, for anyone who hasn't seen it, Dexter is about a murderer with a conscience, I guess, and he has this internal monologue.

Josie Ferguson: 00:28:34

And she.

Josie Ferguson: 00:28:35

And she said, so she said, right, I've been watching this tv show, Dexter, with my boyfriend, and he turned to me last night, and he said, I love this show, but it's a bit unrealistic because of this whole internal monologue thing that just wouldn't happen.

Josie Ferguson: 00:28:50

And she turned to look at him, and she said, what do you mean?

Josie Ferguson: 00:28:53

I mean, we all have an internal monologue.

Josie Ferguson: 00:28:56

And he just said, I don't.

Josie Ferguson: 00:28:59

And so she'd gone on to Reddit, and she'd said, well, is my boyfriend a sociopath?

Josie Ferguson: 00:29:05

Do I need to be.

Josie Ferguson: 00:29:06

Do I need to be worried?

Josie Ferguson: 00:29:07

Like, what's going on?

Josie Ferguson: 00:29:08

I mean, surely everyone has an internal monologue, right?

Josie Ferguson: 00:29:12

And this started this conversation, a conversation that went viral, and everyone was discussing this, and it turns out that, no, not everyone has an internal monologue.

Josie Ferguson: 00:29:23

That there are many people who think in images instead, and then there are even more who think both in images and in words.

Josie Ferguson: 00:29:33

So everyone thinks differently, but we have just assumed that everyone thinks in the same way that we do.

Josie Ferguson: 00:29:40

And I became absolutely, absolutely obsessed with this whole question because I just couldn't grasp that there were people out there, that there are people out there who don't have words in their head, who don't have a monologue, because I have.

Josie Ferguson: 00:29:53

I have a constant.

Josie Ferguson: 00:29:54

It's very, very noisy in my head.

Josie Ferguson: 00:29:58

So I started to do a little bit of research about it, and, and then I sort of went down this rabbit hole, and I was reading all about, again, I can't pronounce synthesethe senior.

Josie Ferguson: 00:30:08

When people think in colors, and then there are people, you know, who can taste colors, and there are all kinds of different ways of thinking.

Josie Ferguson: 00:30:18

And, I mean, I also, I have, I mean, I'm sure.

Josie Ferguson: 00:30:21

Again, I'm not sure because apparently it's, you know, this isn't the case.

Josie Ferguson: 00:30:24

But, but I have a kind of soundtrack to my life as well.

Josie Ferguson: 00:30:28

I often hear songs when I'm walking down the street.

Josie Ferguson: 00:30:30

And so I started to think, oh, I wonder whether there could be a people out there who think in music that that is their sort of dominant thought process rather than an internal monologue and rather than images.

Josie Ferguson: 00:30:44

And so that was where this idea was born from.

Josie Ferguson: 00:30:48

So it's not supposed to be sort of magical.

Josie Ferguson: 00:30:51

It's supposed to be just a form of synaesthesia.

Josie Ferguson: 00:30:56

And, yes, so Ellie, whenever she meets someone, she sort of hears their song, essentially.

Josie Ferguson: 00:31:02

And this in, in her life, this also helps her to recognize, perhaps, the people that she can trust, the people that she can't.

Josie Ferguson: 00:31:12

I mean, just how people believe they see auras.

Josie Ferguson: 00:31:15

This is something similar.

Josie Ferguson: 00:31:16

And she understands that other people don't have this, but it's this kind of quirky sort of characteristic of hers.

Josie Ferguson: 00:31:24

And when I sent the book off, I remember saying to my agent, I said, I've been trying to get published for so long.

Josie Ferguson: 00:31:33

And I said, I will change anything that the editor wants me to change.

Josie Ferguson: 00:31:38

I'll write the whole book backwards if she wants me to, but I won't change the music because that became really Important to me.

Josie Ferguson: 00:31:47

So, yeah, so that's where it was born from, a Reddit thread.

Host: 00:31:51

I love that.

Host: 00:31:52

And I didn't see it at all as magical realism.

Host: 00:31:54

I found it really believable.

Host: 00:31:57

And just, I loved how she could sort of tell who around her was maybe sad or something to be wary of.

Host: 00:32:02

And I don't know if it's like my father in law.

Host: 00:32:04

I remember years ago him saying to me, he sees things.

Host: 00:32:08

If you were telling him something you've done and you like, oh, I went here and I saw Josie.

Host: 00:32:12

He sees things as comic strips, so they sort of come in.

Host: 00:32:16

I know it's brilliant.

Host: 00:32:17

But he says he gets, like, speech bubbles and, you know, like in the comments when they have, like, the sort of document on people's clothes and things.

Josie Ferguson: 00:32:23

Yes, yes.

Host: 00:32:24

So he sees all of that.

Host: 00:32:26

So he's now 82, and he said.

Host: 00:32:28

He said he still does it.

Host: 00:32:29

He said, but the colors have turned down.

Host: 00:32:31

And I was like, oh, his pal is fading a little bit, but that's how he sees.

Host: 00:32:36

I was like, oh, my gosh, I want to be inside your brain.

Josie Ferguson: 00:32:40

I absolutely love that.

Josie Ferguson: 00:32:42

And that's the thing, you know, we just assume that everyone thinks the same way we do, but people don't.

Josie Ferguson: 00:32:48

Gosh, that's just incredible.

Josie Ferguson: 00:32:50

That is really.

Host: 00:32:50

Yeah.

Josie Ferguson: 00:32:51

I wondered, did he read a lot of comic books as a kid?

Josie Ferguson: 00:32:53

I wonder if that's where it was born from.

Host: 00:32:55

He said he doesn't remember when it started.

Host: 00:32:57

He just feels like it was always there.

Host: 00:32:59

But it's only like if people are talking, like, you know, as I say, if you were trying to sort of describe, like a family party or something he puts into a comic.

Host: 00:33:05

And he said, the characters sort of zoom in and sort of sit, and then the speech bubbles come above them and things.

Josie Ferguson: 00:33:09

I was like, that's absolutely amazing.

Host: 00:33:13

I wondered, when we had our kids, I was like, oh, I wonder whether that's going to pass data.

Host: 00:33:17

But that power I know of, not that they've ever said anything to me.

Host: 00:33:21

It might come.

Josie Ferguson: 00:33:21

It might come, maybe.

Host: 00:33:24

So you went one step further with the music because you partnered with your brother, didn't you, to.

Host: 00:33:30

How did that come to say?

Host: 00:33:31

Your brother has written music for the characters?

Josie Ferguson: 00:33:34

Yes.

Josie Ferguson: 00:33:35

So my brother, he's an architect by trade, but he composes music and always has.

Josie Ferguson: 00:33:42

He's a brilliant musician.

Josie Ferguson: 00:33:44

I come from quite a musical family in general.

Josie Ferguson: 00:33:46

I'm probably the least musical of them all, but he's very musical, and he's always been able to compose the most incredible music.

Josie Ferguson: 00:33:54

And he was one of my first readers of the book.

Josie Ferguson: 00:33:58

And it was.

Josie Ferguson: 00:33:59

It was actually nearing the end, only a few months before publication, actually, that I suddenly kind of woke up, jolted awake in the middle of the night.

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:08

And I just thought, I need to get my brother Mickey.

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:11

I need to get him to compose the music for.

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:14

For these characters.

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:15

That would just be.

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:16

That would just be so cool, because I can.

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:18

I can hear the music in my head, and I wonder if, from my descriptions, he could create something similar.

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:25

And so I called him up and I said, you know, would you mind doing this?

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:27

And he said, I would love to do this.

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:29

And so, yeah, so we kind of got together all the bits from the book which describe, you know, the music, and there's not a huge amount of description for people's songs, but there's perhaps enough to sort of create something out of it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:43

And then when he sent me the music, too, he's done four characters so far.

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:48

When he sent me the music, I remember opening that email and thinking, oh, God, you know, am I going to like it?

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:53

And what am I going to say if I don't?

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:54

And he wrote as well.

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:55

He said, right, here it comes.

Josie Ferguson: 00:34:57

If you hate it, then it's fine.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:00

But this is how I hear their songs.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:03

And I played them and I just cried throughout listening to them, because they were just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:08

They're just perfect.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:09

The songs just encapsulate them.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:12

And even Rita's songs.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:13

So Rita is Lizette's mother and she suffers from Alzheimer's, and even her song, he's even added this kind of.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:21

It's sort of a bit of like a, sort of a hiccup in the song.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:24

Like, that's.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:24

That's deliberate, that it's actually, you know, it's a bit, kind of chaotic, the song.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:31

And.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:32

No, I mean, I just thought he'd just done such a wonderful job and I just thought, right, you know, I don't know if anyone else will actually be interested in.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:38

In listening to the characters songs, but I thought, you know, I'm going to get.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:41

Put them up on my.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:42

On my website and then if anyone wants to, then they can find those songs and listen to the characters songs.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:50

So, yeah, it's a bit.

Josie Ferguson: 00:35:51

It's a bit of a quirky idea, but I hope it's something that some people have enjoyed.

Host: 00:35:55

It's wonderful.

Host: 00:35:56

I remember when I finished the book, the first time I messaged you on Instagram, I was like, oh, my gosh, I loved it.

Host: 00:36:01

And you pointed me to your website and I had the same thing.

Host: 00:36:04

It was almost like watching a book you love being turned into a movie, that sort of fear, like, oh, what if it doesn't sound?

Host: 00:36:11

And they are beautiful.

Host: 00:36:12

And very last minute yesterday, I reached out to you and said, oh, would you mind if we played a little clip of one of the pieces of music?

Host: 00:36:20

So we're going to listen to now a short clip which was for Lisette.

Host: 00:36:47

That was Lisette, which was composed by Josie's brother, Mickey Bond.

Host: 00:36:50

And if you'd like to hear more music from the characters from the silence in between, they are on Josie's website and you can find links for them in the show notes.

Host: 00:36:58

The silence in between is out now and it's a powerful and brilliant read that I would highly recommend.

Host: 00:37:03

And I also think it would be an incredible book club choice because there's so much to discuss in it.

Host: 00:37:07

So if you're looking for a perfect book club choice, do consider picking this one up, because I think it would be brilliant.

Host: 00:37:13

Okay, so before we move on to talk about your desert island books, just to remind listeners that they're all going to be linked in the show notes, and there are a lot of them, so you'll be able to find them easily.

Host: 00:37:26

So, Josie, when we were talking before we came on, how did you.

Host: 00:37:30

I mean, I can't even say, how did you find choosing your five?

Josie Ferguson: 00:37:34

Well, yes, how did you find it?

Josie Ferguson: 00:37:37

You know what?

Josie Ferguson: 00:37:38

I found this actually really difficult because this is really embarrassing to admit, but I've pretty much never read a book more than once, apart from the shadow of the wind, which is one of my chosen five.

Josie Ferguson: 00:37:52

And I'll mention that later, but no, it's not something that I do.

Josie Ferguson: 00:37:56

I don't read books more than once.

Josie Ferguson: 00:37:57

And I think that it's just because there are so many incredible books out there that I want to read.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:03

My TBR is ridiculously long and it gives me so much anxiety.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:09

So, you know, I mean, there are too many to read in a lifetime.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:12

So for me sort of, to read one book that I love again just doesn't make sense.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:16

I want to read something new that I may love even more, or I will love just as much.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:22

So when I chose these books, it was very much choosing books that had shaped my life.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:28

And not once that ones that I've read more than once, but they've just had a really strong impact on me for various reasons.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:37

So, yeah, it was really tricky.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:38

This is a really hard.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:39

A hard thing to do.

Host: 00:38:40

It is hard.

Host: 00:38:41

Doesn't make me very popular.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:42

No, I bet it doesn't.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:44

But also, that's why I love your podcast, because it's such.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:47

Yeah, it is.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:47

You know, the desert islandists for books, which is just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:50

Yeah, it's just such a brilliant idea and.

Josie Ferguson: 00:38:53

Yeah, and I love hearing them, actually.

Host: 00:38:55

Oh, perfect.

Host: 00:38:56

Well, let's start hearing about yours.

Host: 00:38:57

You want to tell us about your first choice then?

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:00

Right.

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:00

So, I mean, I almost just chose children's books because I feel that those have had the most impact on me.

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:07

But in the end, I've chosen this one, which is Pippi Longstocking by Astrid Lingrian.

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:14

So I am.

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:16

I'm half swedish and I'm half scottish, and I grew up in Scotland, but I have spent a lot of time in Sweden.

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:23

I lived in Sweden for many years as well as an adult.

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:25

And every summer I was always in Sweden, too.

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:28

But Pippi Longstocking, for those who haven't heard about her, I mean, she's very well known in Sweden, but I'm not sure how well known she is across the world.

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:37

But in Sweden, she is, everybody knows who she is.

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:41

And she is a redheaded, independent, unapologetic nine year old girl with superhuman strength.

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:51

And she has a pet monkey and a horse.

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:55

I think that's the only way that I can sort of describe who she is.

Josie Ferguson: 00:39:59

And my parents used to read Pippi Longstocking to me as a child, and here you go.

Josie Ferguson: 00:40:05

This is another example of me actually choosing many books and not just one, because there is a whole series of Pippi Longstocking books.

Josie Ferguson: 00:40:12

But she was constantly going on adventures, and she was, you know, she's kind, she's generous, but she refuses to conform to what adults expect her to be.

Josie Ferguson: 00:40:23

And as a kid, I, I mean, I wanted to be just like her.

Josie Ferguson: 00:40:28

And I think my love of books, well, came from reading about all her adventures.

Josie Ferguson: 00:40:34

And I think that it's so important for young girls to see strong female characters in books.

Josie Ferguson: 00:40:41

And, I mean, 30 years later, I'm reading Pippi to my own children.

Josie Ferguson: 00:40:46

So I think that that just proves how, yeah, how much of an impact she had on me and has had on so many people because, I mean, you know, the books came out so long ago, and yet they are still one of the most, like, well, one of the biggest bestsellers in Sweden, at least.

Host: 00:41:00

Yeah, I think she's very well known here as well.

Host: 00:41:02

I mean, I remember reading them to my kids as well.

Host: 00:41:05

was like a, I think it was a: 1970

Josie Ferguson: 00:41:10

Yes, there was.

Host: 00:41:11

I loved, I remember watching that, and I really, because she had, like, as you say, the horse and everything, and she lived on the road.

Host: 00:41:17

Yeah, I loved it.

Host: 00:41:19

But, yeah, I don't remember the books myself.

Host: 00:41:20

I do remember them for my children.

Josie Ferguson: 00:41:23

And you know, what, she questions everything, especially rules.

Josie Ferguson: 00:41:27

And, and, and I think, you know, that kind of, that idea, I think, maybe is reflected a little bit in my book and then just sort of in general, those are the characters that I find so interesting, the ones that question things.

Josie Ferguson: 00:41:39

And, yeah, I think she teaches children to be brave and to be proud to be different because she's so different.

Josie Ferguson: 00:41:47

And also, she's the strongest person in the world, but she doesn't abuse that power.

Josie Ferguson: 00:41:52

Like, instead, she protects the weak and the vulnerable.

Josie Ferguson: 00:41:55

And, I mean, she, she's a feminist icon.

Josie Ferguson: 00:41:57

Like, I just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:41:58

I love her.

Josie Ferguson: 00:41:59

I love her.

Host: 00:42:00

And that's pretty.

Host: 00:42:01

And I love characters for children that inspire them to be curious.

Host: 00:42:04

Like, I always say to my kids, there's no question that's off limits.

Host: 00:42:07

Sometimes I won't know how to answer it.

Host: 00:42:09

Yes, and I might be mortified if you ask me in front of people.

Josie Ferguson: 00:42:13

Yes, me too.

Josie Ferguson: 00:42:14

I know exactly what you mean.

Host: 00:42:17

Well, that's brilliant.

Host: 00:42:18

Okay, so shall we move on to your second choice?

Host: 00:42:22

Which.

Host: 00:42:23

Yeah, we were saying before we came on a couple of weeks ago, I had Nikki Mae as one of my guests, and I thought she'd broken the record by choosing a series with 25 books.

Host: 00:42:34

But you have trashed her record by choosing what series of books?

Josie Ferguson: 00:42:39

Sweet Valley High.

Josie Ferguson: 00:42:43

And how many were there?

Host: 00:42:45

180.

Host: 00:42:48

Come on then.

Host: 00:42:49

Tell us about your love for Sweet Valley High.

Josie Ferguson: 00:42:51

Oh, gosh.

Josie Ferguson: 00:42:52

I mean, so Sweet Valley High, for those who haven't read it or read any in the series, it's about these american twins, Elizabeth and Jessica, and everything they get up to during high school.

Josie Ferguson: 00:43:06

I mean, they are awful role models.

Josie Ferguson: 00:43:09

I mean, Jessica was clearly a sociopath, and, I mean, they slut shame, they fat shame.

Josie Ferguson: 00:43:15

I mean, they're awful people.

Josie Ferguson: 00:43:16

They really are.

Josie Ferguson: 00:43:17

And I would never, ever let my daughter read these books, but they were really special to me.

Josie Ferguson: 00:43:24

And I think mainly because they sort of help me continue my love for reading, because you go through this phase when you're a child and, you know, when you're reading Pippi Longstocking and sort of these similar sort of children's books, and then later you'll go to the YA books and the adult books, but you've got this sort of area during your tweens.

Josie Ferguson: 00:43:45

And I think it's really important for children at that age to find books that they love.

Josie Ferguson: 00:43:49

And for me, it was Sweet Valley High and point horror.

Josie Ferguson: 00:43:53

God, I love point horror as well.

Josie Ferguson: 00:43:56

So every summer I used to spend.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:00

I spent every summer out in the swedish archipelago, which I still do when I can.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:06

And we have a little family house there, which it's more like a shack, a hut than a house.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:13

Growing up, we didn't have any electricity.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:16

We had no running water.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:17

There was no tv, no proper toilets.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:22

I actually just got back from there last week, and we do have electricity now, but we still don't have any toilets.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:28

So it's a bit of a.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:29

Yeah, it's a bit of.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:30

It's very remote.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:31

It's a very sort of weird place.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:33

But I used to be there for two months every summer, and there was basically nothing to do apart from swim and fish and reed.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:44

Now, Sweden doesn't always have the best weather, so swimming and fishing was out most, most of the time, which meant that I read a lot.

Josie Ferguson: 00:44:52

And in my tween years, I spent those summers being really jealous of all my school friends going on these fancy holidays.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:00

And I think I sort of lived vicariously through the sweet valley high twins.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:06

And looking back, those summers were so idyllic and they were so, so wonderful.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:14

And now I go back there with my children.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:18

I mean, we do have, we do have Internet there now, but it's, it's quite patchy and there's very limited.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:23

We don't have a tv.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:25

So, yeah, I kind of.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:27

I make, I make them read and I hope that they will continue to love reading, which they do at the moment.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:33

So.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:33

Yeah, so sweet.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:34

Radio high is very connected to that time.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:36

I wouldn't necessarily say they're.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:38

I wouldn't necessarily suggest that people get their children to read them because I don't think morally that they're the best books, but I.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:46

Yeah, they, they were really important to me.

Josie Ferguson: 00:45:48

I really loved them.

Host: 00:45:49

It's so funny because when it came up on the list, my daughter has really got into reading this summer.

Host: 00:45:53

She has just been.

Host: 00:45:54

And I was like, oh, I loved these.

Host: 00:45:55

I wonder if she'd enjoy them because I couldn't really quite remember the stories that I looked.

Host: 00:45:59

And I was like, oh, yeah.

Josie Ferguson: 00:46:04

I mean, you know, they honestly, I'm amazed that they were allowed because some of them were just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:46:09

Yeah, they really.

Josie Ferguson: 00:46:11

They're not people see in the slightest, but they were enjoyable.

Josie Ferguson: 00:46:16

And I think, you know, they also.

Josie Ferguson: 00:46:17

There were parts that it was also about kind of learning how to navigate friendships, I think, which I think is, you know, the one thing probably from the books that felt sort of universal and I think, you know, helped me through my teens as well, so.

Josie Ferguson: 00:46:31

But, yeah, I probably wouldn't get my, my daughter to read them.

Host: 00:46:34

Yeah, no, they're not going on our list over here.

Host: 00:46:38

I love that because I know when I was growing up, like, reading in the summer, we used to go down to Devon quite a bit and, you know, we'd be playing outside more and things.

Host: 00:46:45

But I loved having my books with me and I have really fond memories.

Host: 00:46:49

So I think it's lovely.

Host: 00:46:50

Like, my son isn't a reader at all.

Host: 00:46:53

He hasn't found anything that sort of sparked his love for it.

Host: 00:46:56

But when we were on holiday just recently, my daughter was like, when she was packing her bag, it was so me like, oh, my gosh, I saw her.

Host: 00:47:03

Like, she had a tiny pile of clothes.

Host: 00:47:05

Massive pile of books.

Host: 00:47:06

Wonderful.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:07

Wonderful.

Host: 00:47:08

Winning.

Host: 00:47:10

Okay, let's.

Host: 00:47:11

Let's move on to talk about your third choice, Josie.

Host: 00:47:14

Right?

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:15

My third choice is.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:16

Ah, yes.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:17

The Shadow of the wind by Carlos Rose Safon.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:20

Now, oh, I mean, this book, it's.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:23

It's my all time favorite book, so.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:26

And like I said, I.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:28

This is actually the only book that I have read more than once.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:31

I remember that it just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:33

It swallowed me whole when I read it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:35

And I just couldn't fathom how a book could have such an impact on someone.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:40

And the moment I finished it, I remember just flicking back to the beginning and reading it all over again.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:46

I mean, I think that I'll spend my life trying and failing to write books as incredible as this one, but, yeah, I don't think there's anything I would rather pursue than that goal.

Josie Ferguson: 00:47:58

y, it's based in Barcelona in: 1945

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:12

So it's a great premise, and it's just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:16

Honestly, it's amazing.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:18

And for anyone who hasn't read it, please do, because it's just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:21

It's just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:22

It's perfection.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:24

And actually, when my.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:26

My agent was sending out my book, he sent me a listen.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:31

Of all the editors he was going to send them to, he was going to send it to, and one of the editors on the list was Kirsty Dunsheath.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:40

And I found out that it was her who brought the shadow of the wind to the english speaking world.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:47

She speaks Spanish, and she had read it in Spanish, and she had just fallen in love with it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:52

And I just said, this book has got to be read widely.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:54

It needs to be translated into English.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:57

So she was involved in doing that.

Josie Ferguson: 00:48:59

And when I saw that she was on this list of editors that it was being sent to, I just knew.

Josie Ferguson: 00:49:04

I just knew that she was going to be my editor, that she was the one, and she was so, she was the one that gave me my preempt, and.

Josie Ferguson: 00:49:14

Yeah, and it just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:49:15

It just felt.

Josie Ferguson: 00:49:16

Felt like fate.

Josie Ferguson: 00:49:17

I knew immediately that, yeah, she was the one I had to work with.

Josie Ferguson: 00:49:20

So it's an incredible book.

Josie Ferguson: 00:49:22

It's just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:49:23

Yeah.

Josie Ferguson: 00:49:23

And actually, now this makes me want to read it for a third time, which I probably will.

Host: 00:49:28

That gave me goosebumps then, like, you know, and actually, I've heard it a few times with authors, like, you know, they sort of, you know, lucky twists of fate, but they've ended up books.

Host: 00:49:37

And I think that's so, so lovely.

Host: 00:49:39

I haven't read this one.

Host: 00:49:41

It's one I've always felt a little intimidated by.

Josie Ferguson: 00:49:44

Oh, no, no, you don't need to.

Host: 00:49:46

No.

Host: 00:49:47

It's weird, isn't it?

Host: 00:49:47

I just sort of think, oh, so recently on instagram after.

Host: 00:49:51

Do you remember when the New York Times listed the hundred best books of the 21st century?

Host: 00:49:56

And I.

Josie Ferguson: 00:49:57

And we'd all read about two of them, maybe at best.

Host: 00:50:01

So I was like, right, come on, bookstagram, tell me what you think should be on the list.

Host: 00:50:04

And this came in the top 20 from the list.

Host: 00:50:08

And I was like, okay, now I.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:10

Want to read it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:11

You have to read it, because honestly, like, I know that you're not a big sort of fan of sort of the classics, and nor am I.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:18

I do not read, you know, the classic books.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:22

I never have.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:23

Like, I mean, obviously we were forced to read some of them when we were younger, but.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:27

And I rarely read any of the kind of the books that win all the big sort of fancy prizes just because I don't feel.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:36

I don't know, they don't really reach me in the way that I would like them to reach me.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:41

But this isn't one of those books.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:43

It's not at all.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:44

It is just an amazing book.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:46

It's such a page turner, and you won't be able to put it down.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:50

It's brilliant.

Host: 00:50:51

Okay.

Host: 00:50:52

I am going to promise you that I'm going to read it and I'm going to try and read it by the time this episode goes out.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:57

Yes, please do.

Josie Ferguson: 00:50:58

And let me know your thoughts.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:00

I'm sure you're going to love it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:01

I hope I haven't bigged it up too much, though.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:03

That would.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:04

Oh, God.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:04

Now I'm worried that I bigged up too much.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:06

You're going to hate it because of it, but you can't.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:07

You can't hate it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:08

It's just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:09

It's too incredible.

Host: 00:51:10

Well, I will let you know.

Host: 00:51:12

I'm sure I will love it.

Host: 00:51:13

Okay, let's move on to book four.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:16

Yes.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:16

So, between shades of Grey by Ruta Sapetti.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:20

So, yes, not to be mistaken for 50 shades of Grey, this is between shades of greyhouse.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:26

in a work camp in Siberia in: 1941

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:35

So couldn't be as sort of opposite as, you know, 50 Shades of Grey.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:41

And this is, it's, it's a brilliant book.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:44

It's actually a ya book, but it's, it's sort of a part of history that I didn't know about during World War two.

Josie Ferguson: 00:51:53

And Ruta, she's a, the author, she's known as a seeker of lost stories.

Josie Ferguson: 00:52:00

And when I read this book, I knew that that was, that I wanted to follow a similar path of finding really important and untold stories that have become lost in the cracks of time, basically.

Josie Ferguson: 00:52:15

So this book is important to me because, yeah, I think it sort of showed me the path I wanted to take, because when I, when I finished that book, it wasn't just that it was a brilliant story and it was brilliantly told and the writing was beautiful and that it was a page turner.

Josie Ferguson: 00:52:29

But also I walked away having learnt something and learned something that I thought was important.

Josie Ferguson: 00:52:36

So, yeah, it's a fantastic book.

Josie Ferguson: 00:52:38

And all Reuters books are, and they all do similar things of trying to find stories that other people don't really know about.

Josie Ferguson: 00:52:47

The latest one is called I must betray you, which is based in Romania.

Josie Ferguson: 00:52:53

And that one is also just, yeah, it's astounding.

Josie Ferguson: 00:52:57

And the research that she's done and the information that is divulged that you, you know, just things that you learn.

Josie Ferguson: 00:53:03

But it's also a brilliant, brilliant, exciting book.

Josie Ferguson: 00:53:07

So, yeah, that's, that's a real favorite of mine.

Host: 00:53:10

It was one I haven't read.

Host: 00:53:11

And when it came through, I mean, I did had to really laugh and said not to be mistaken for 50 shades.

Host: 00:53:17

I think I had actually read it.

Host: 00:53:21

I thought it was part of that series.

Host: 00:53:22

I was like, oh, no.

Josie Ferguson: 00:53:24

Because honestly, I mentioned this book to so many people and people ask me, oh, you know, what are some of your favorite books?

Josie Ferguson: 00:53:28

And I always have to be not 50 shades, please listen to me.

Josie Ferguson: 00:53:32

Because immediately their face just kind of falls and they're like, what?

Josie Ferguson: 00:53:35

And I'm like, no, no, it's not that one.

Josie Ferguson: 00:53:37

It's a very unfortunate title.

Josie Ferguson: 00:53:39

And it came out first.

Josie Ferguson: 00:53:43

So, yeah, and I feel that the book would have done better if 50 shades of Grey hadn't kind of, you know, jumped in and kind of dominated everyone's psyche.

Josie Ferguson: 00:53:52

But it still has been a huge bestseller and was made into a film as well.

Josie Ferguson: 00:53:55

So it's done very well for itself.

Host: 00:53:58

But it's what I added to basket because when I was, when they came through and I was looking through it, I was like, oh, that actually sounds like one I would really enjoy.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:03

Yeah, I think, I really think you would enjoy it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:05

It's a very, very good book.

Host: 00:54:07

So you've managed to get me two books to read.

Host: 00:54:10

Okay?

Host: 00:54:11

And let's talk about your final book choice joke.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:13

All right, let's see if I can persuade you to read this one too.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:15

So this is the 13th tale by Diane Setterfield.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:21

And it's about a biographer who interviews a reclusive author, an author who gives a different version of her life story to every journalist who interviews her.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:32

But the author's dying, and so she's promised this time to tell the truth.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:36

Again.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:37

It's such a great premise, and at its heart, it's a sort of haunting gothic mystery.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:44

I guess there is also an incredible twist in it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:48

Probably the best twist I've ever read.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:51

And, yeah, I mean, this is.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:53

Again, this is in my top five sort of favourite books.

Josie Ferguson: 00:54:58

The reason I would choose this one, though, is not.

Josie Ferguson: 00:55:01

Not just because it's one of the best books that I think I've ever written.

Josie Ferguson: 00:55:05

Written.

Josie Ferguson: 00:55:05

God, I wish I've ever readdez is that I read it one winter, and I was living in Sweden at the time, and I don't know if you've been to Sweden in the wintertime, Helen, but it's pretty depressing.

Josie Ferguson: 00:55:24

There's only about 4 hours of sunlight from where I'm from in Stockholm.

Josie Ferguson: 00:55:29

The sun comes up at: 10:00

Josie Ferguson: 00:55:30

and goes down around: 02:00

Josie Ferguson: 00:55:33

it gets as cold as -20 in the summer.

Josie Ferguson: 00:55:38

It's amazing because then you obviously have the midnight sun and you have sort of, you know, 20, 20 hours of daylight.

Josie Ferguson: 00:55:43

But the winters are really, really tough.

Josie Ferguson: 00:55:46

And I lived in Sweden from, let's see, I must have lived there for about four or five years during university.

Josie Ferguson: 00:55:55

And at this.

Josie Ferguson: 00:55:58

There was this one winter, and I'd just gone through a really devastating heartbreak.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:02

And I was really, really depressed and I was struggling a lot.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:07

And then of course, the winter came and it's just dark and cold and miserable.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:13

And yeah, I wasn't suicidal, but I was going through a really, really dark time.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:20

And I remember picking up this book, and I guess it just reminded me that I could still get joy out of life because I picked it up and.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:31

And it's.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:32

God, it just reignited my love for reading.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:34

It just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:34

It reignited my love for life, I think.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:36

And I.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:37

And I remember.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:38

And I'd lost that for a while.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:39

And I remember just thinking, you know, as long as there are still books this magical in the world that I haven't read yet, I can't go anywhere.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:49

And, you know, and the world is still a place that I want to be in.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:54

Sorry this has taken a really dark turn, but it was just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:56:58

It was a really important book for me.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:00

And, you know, the actual book is in no way uplifting.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:04

It's pretty dark itself, but like I said, it just reignited my love for reading.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:09

And during this horrible, dark winter, I instead, you know, sort of, you know, snuggled up, you know, on.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:16

On the duvet.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:17

I was living alone, and I snuggled up on, you know, under my duvet on the sofa, you know, with a nice cup of tea and some.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:23

Some good chocolate.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:24

And I just read this fantastic book, and I came out the other side just feeling.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:29

Yeah, just feeling pretty good and just.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:31

And heading straight to the bookshop to buy some more good books.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:36

And I think that's what reading and, you know, books is all about, really, is sort of.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:41

Yeah.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:42

Finding.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:43

Finding joy in life and also finding connection in life, because I went around telling everybody I could find about this book and saying, you have to read it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:51

And then having people sort of come back to me being like, oh, my goodness, I read it.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:56

Let's sit and talk about that twist.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:57

Because the twist is brilliant.

Josie Ferguson: 00:57:59

So, yes, just a really special, brilliantly written book.

Josie Ferguson: 00:58:03

And, yes, if you haven't read it, then you have to do so because it's outstanding.

Host: 00:58:11

I haven't read it.

Host: 00:58:12

You sold me on the twist.

Josie Ferguson: 00:58:14

Yes.

Host: 00:58:15

I think that is something that's so important about reading.

Host: 00:58:19

You know, it does bring people together, and there's a lot of healing to be found.

Host: 00:58:23

You know, you don't have to be reading a self help book, you know.

Josie Ferguson: 00:58:26

No, exactly.

Host: 00:58:27

And it's something I quite often hear on, you know, people contacting me on Instagram and talking about a book.

Host: 00:58:33

And I just think it's so special that it can help people.

Host: 00:58:36

So, I'm sorry you went through a really dark time, but I'm so glad that you found a book that could bring joy back to your life.

Host: 00:58:43

And that's really incredible.

Josie Ferguson: 00:58:45

Yeah, it is.

Josie Ferguson: 00:58:46

It is.

Host: 00:58:47

Okay, Josie, I'm going to hit you now with the tough, tough question.

Host: 00:58:51

I kind of feel like if you're going to go sweet Valley High, I'm going to make you pick one.

Josie Ferguson: 00:58:59

I could.

Josie Ferguson: 00:58:59

Because then I.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:00

Then I would never get bored.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:01

I wouldn't have to read anything more than once.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:03

I could just read them all.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:04

All through, from beginning to end.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:06

No, I wouldn't.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:07

I wouldn't put high.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:08

I promise.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:08

Which book?

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:09

Which book it would have to be.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:12

It would have to be the shadow of the wind.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:15

Yes.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:16

Oh.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:16

I mean, you know, I've been thinking about this question, and I've kind of flitted between the shadow of the wind and the 13th tale.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:23

I think each day I've got a new answer.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:24

But my answer today is going to be the shadow of the wind.

Host: 00:59:27

Well, I wouldn't be mean.

Host: 00:59:28

I'd give you both.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:29

Oh, good.

Host: 00:59:30

Thank goodness.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:31

Okay, good, good.

Host: 00:59:32

So tomorrow, when you wake up and it's changed, you don't have to worry.

Host: 00:59:35

You've got both.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:36

Okay.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:36

Perfect.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:37

Perfect.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:37

Thank you so much, Josie.

Host: 00:59:39

It has been absolutely amazing.

Host: 00:59:41

I've loved chatting to you.

Host: 00:59:42

Thank you so much for your time today.

Host: 00:59:44

It's been brilliant.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:45

Thank you so much for having me.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:46

Honestly, it's been.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:47

It's been such a joy.

Host: 00:59:49

I.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:49

There's nothing I like to do more than talk about books.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:51

So.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:52

Yeah, this has been an hour well spent.

Host: 00:59:55

Yeah, I loved it.

Host: 00:59:56

Thank you, Josie.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:57

Thank you so much.

Josie Ferguson: 00:59:58

Ellen.

Host: 00:59:59

The silence in between is out now, and it is one of my favourite reads of the year so far, one I would highly recommend you pick up.

Host: 01:00:07

As always, all of the books that we've talked about today are in the show notes with links to buy.

Host: 01:00:12

I really hope that you've enjoyed this episode as much as I have.

Host: 01:00:15

I'll be back next week chatting to another author about the books that have shaped their life, and I really hope that you'll join me for that episode too.

Host: 01:00:22

In the meantime, I'd be so grateful if you could take the time to rate, review, subscribe, and most importantly, tell your friends about it.

Host: 01:00:30

Thanks for listening and see you next week.